Toto Wolf - Formula 1 should be leading the pack in sustainable fuels and biofuels instead of electric

[Big Tea]

There are going to be two viewpoints here. Those who live in cities and those who live in, well the rest of the world.
There is little alternative to getting cities geared up, but I am afraid the rest will probably still wait in 10 years


I have looked at the maps, and looked for figures in UK. I see a headline - More chargers than fuel ststions in UK

)There are 9,300 electric vehicle (EV) charging locations across the UK, compared to 8,400 fuel stations.)

But I can not find figures stating how many of theses are public, and if I look at a map it is easy to see where the public ones are, in London area.

Also, a car is in a fuel station for 5 min or so at a charging point for 4 hrs plus, even when they turn up promptly or it could be all day

I guess when you live outside a small city, most people have a driveway. Don’t know how it is in the UK, but here you’ll get a good plan from an energy company to have a decent home charging port next to your car.
I live in a fairly small town of 100.000 people, charging ports everywhere. Nobody has to mess with extension cords (not for cars, not for electric mopeds or even electric bicycles)

I am lucky, I have a drive. It still means though that where ever I would go (don't have electric at the moment) I would have to factor in range or charging unless I was going to a large town or city.
There are quite a few 'home chargers' near me, but apart from one (or more, don't know) installed in a local golf club, and some Nisan dealers, there is only Ikea (5) and one carpark rub by local authority (3).

TBH I get well over 50 mpg from my car so probably the switch to electric would not even break even ecologically.
Pre Covid, I was more likely to use public transport anyway

[Jolle]

There are going to be two viewpoints here. Those who live in cities and those who live in, well the rest of the world.
There is little alternative to getting cities geared up, but I am afraid the rest will probably still wait in 10 years


I have looked at the maps, and looked for figures in UK. I see a headline - More chargers than fuel ststions in UK

)There are 9,300 electric vehicle (EV) charging locations across the UK, compared to 8,400 fuel stations.)

But I can not find figures stating how many of theses are public, and if I look at a map it is easy to see where the public ones are, in London area.

Also, a car is in a fuel station for 5 min or so at a charging point for 4 hrs plus, even when they turn up promptly or it could be all day

I guess when you live outside a small city, most people have a driveway. Don’t know how it is in the UK, but here you’ll get a good plan from an energy company to have a decent home charging port next to your car.
I live in a fairly small town of 100.000 people, charging ports everywhere. Nobody has to mess with extension cords (not for cars, not for electric mopeds or even electric bicycles)

I am lucky, I have a drive. It still means though that where ever I would go (don't have electric at the moment) I would have to factor in range or charging unless I was going to a large town or city.
There are quite a few 'home chargers' near me, but apart from one (or more, don't know) installed in a local golf club, and some Nisan dealers, there is only Ikea (5) and one carpark rub by local authority (3).

TBH I get well over 50 mpg from my car so probably the switch to electric would not even break even ecologically.
Pre Covid, I was more likely to use public transport anyway

Here, if you go electric you’ll get a home charger if possible or they make sure there are enough charging ports available on public car parks. The motorway gas stations are getting more and more fast charging stations.

Electric also has a few big upsides from gas cars, short distances don’t wear out the car so much. If, like many small cars, you only do school runs and shopping, there is also no real “I haven’t used the car in 4 weeks I hope it still starts” etc.

[Big Tea]

I guess when you live outside a small city, most people have a driveway. Don’t know how it is in the UK, but here you’ll get a good plan from an energy company to have a decent home charging port next to your car.
I live in a fairly small town of 100.000 people, charging ports everywhere. Nobody has to mess with extension cords (not for cars, not for electric mopeds or even electric bicycles)

I am lucky, I have a drive. It still means though that where ever I would go (don't have electric at the moment) I would have to factor in range or charging unless I was going to a large town or city.
There are quite a few 'home chargers' near me, but apart from one (or more, don't know) installed in a local golf club, and some Nisan dealers, there is only Ikea (5) and one carpark rub by local authority (3).

TBH I get well over 50 mpg from my car so probably the switch to electric would not even break even ecologically.
Pre Covid, I was more likely to use public transport anyway

Here, if you go electric you’ll get a home charger if possible or they make sure there are enough charging ports available on public car parks. The motorway gas stations are getting more and more fast charging stations.

Electric also has a few big upsides from gas cars, short distances don’t wear out the car so much. If, like many small cars, you only do school runs and shopping, there is also no real “I haven’t used the car in 4 weeks I hope it still starts” etc.

UK government have recently announced they are studying methods of taxing electricity used to power cars, so I expect a drop off for a while.

[Jolle]

I am lucky, I have a drive. It still means though that where ever I would go (don't have electric at the moment) I would have to factor in range or charging unless I was going to a large town or city.
There are quite a few 'home chargers' near me, but apart from one (or more, don't know) installed in a local golf club, and some Nisan dealers, there is only Ikea (5) and one carpark rub by local authority (3).

TBH I get well over 50 mpg from my car so probably the switch to electric would not even break even ecologically.
Pre Covid, I was more likely to use public transport anyway

Here, if you go electric you’ll get a home charger if possible or they make sure there are enough charging ports available on public car parks. The motorway gas stations are getting more and more fast charging stations.

Electric also has a few big upsides from gas cars, short distances don’t wear out the car so much. If, like many small cars, you only do school runs and shopping, there is also no real “I haven’t used the car in 4 weeks I hope it still starts” etc.

UK government have recently announced they are studying methods of taxing electricity used to power cars, so I expect a drop off for a while.

You would think the British government would be out of feet to shoot themselves in to...

[NL_Fer]

350kw & 600kw DC charging is underway. No need for home charging anymore. Price and usability are matching combustion sooner than you think.

Eventually it all comes down to ground resources.

Can we built cheap, clean batteries without scarce materials to favour the EV or can be produce enough bio-waste without polluting the land for e-fuels?

[Tommy Cookers]

So how do these E-fuels work with future emission laws?
The Euro 7 seems to look very strict. Some suspect that euro 7 will make combustion engines so expensive, an EV can be very price competitive ......
https://www.transportenvironment.org/si ... trucks.pdf

Euro 7 mentions bearing down on aldehyde emission into the air
(this being driven by alcohol fuels)

btw
will it bear down on the epidemic of aldehydes in food ?
(this being driven by the epidemic of foodist cooking with polyunsaturates eg sunflower oil etc etc)
and the epidemic of blocked sewers ?
(this being partly driven by the increased dumping of polyunsaturates due to their short life)

[RedNEO]

Mercedes set to quit Formula E ahead of Gen3 era

This announcement arrives at the end of only Mercedes' second season in Formula E, having entered the championship in a works capacity in 2019-20 following a season run under the HWA Racelab banner.

https://www.motorsport.com/formula-e/ne ... a/6648187/

[RedNEO]

Is FE and other battery only series running out of juice?

[flmkane]

Here, if you go electric you’ll get a home charger if possible or they make sure there are enough charging ports available on public car parks. The motorway gas stations are getting more and more fast charging stations.

Electric also has a few big upsides from gas cars, short distances don’t wear out the car so much. If, like many small cars, you only do school runs and shopping, there is also no real “I haven’t used the car in 4 weeks I hope it still starts” etc.

UK government have recently announced they are studying methods of taxing electricity used to power cars, so I expect a drop off for a while.

You would think the British government would be out of feet to shoot themselves in to...

No worries. They just have to shoot a testicle now.

On a side note. My dad actually shot his foot once. Still has the bone shards

[Zynerji]

Can we just go to Nitromethane V10's and call it good?


Please?

[RedNEO]

Can we just go to Nitromethane V10's and call it good?


Please?

I believe the route F1 is going will not be far from there.. it might not be a V10 but if it sounds great then everyone will be happy.. mostly

[coaster]

Lets admit it, indy cars have got it sussed out.

[Manoah2u]

<A whole lot of posts got moved here from the Silly Season thread.>

Road car PUs are becoming smaller and more efficient. Large capacity NA engines don't have a market many places outside of the USA.

again, have a look at the Gordon Murray supercar, The new V12 Countach, New Bugatti's, etc.
Mclaren doesn't build hatchbacks. RedBull is a energy drink manufacturer - that's building a V12 hypercar btw,
Aston Martin neither builds priuses.

Hybrids, usually with smaller capacity turbocharged petrol engines, are where cars are going these days, except where they are full EVs. Even sports car manufacturers are going that way in some degree or other.

because they are forced to it due to rediculous 'green' laws which will soon become obsolete by the introduction of synth fuels, and there will become a balance/equilibrium between EV, HEV, and ICE.

Now, that's not to say that F1 is / should be road relevant but the reality is that F1 will only survive with several manufacturers making PUs. It's not going to go back to the days of the DFV where almost everyone other than Ferrari was running one engine.

We've got Alpine the only team with a Renault engine, and that engine is far from road relevant, including every little engine out there. your arguments are void of any substance but you refuse to look through the cloud/veil.

F1, like it or not, has to exist in a world where the politics of the internal combustion engine are not in favour of big V8s, V10 or V12s. And F1 absolutely must live in accordance with those politics or it will find itself out in the cold.

Perhaps look into what is being concidered for the future, again, especially, with Synth fuels in mind.
Also, think about why Tesla isn't in F1.

Synthetic fuels might help, but they won't offset the political pressure. As time goes on, F1 - all motorsport that involves burning fuel - will become less socially acceptable. Going back to a grid full of screaming V10s will hasten that day's arrival. That's just simple reality.

Ehm, no. Synth fuel will be the wonder provider that'll get people to continue enjoying combustion engines without being attacked destroying the world through toxic pollution. Synth fuels will have other issues to adress but is the way to go forward and extend ICE engines life several decades the least.

And does anyone really believe that synthetic fuels are going to be able to power every car in the world? Really?

you seem to be void of any knowledge of it's capacity and what's already out there. Not only is it actual PEANUTS to let a diesel engine run on vegetable oil (yes i'm being overly simplified, but the fuel in F1 cars isn't the same you get in the gas station either). It's been around for more than a decade, the 'system' if you will however prevents it from happening/being allowed.

Here's a newsflash too; you think at the gas stations you are fueling 100% real gasoline? wake up.
You think the oil in tranny's nowadays is the same as in the 70's? Ever heared of FULLY SYNTHETIC transmission fluid?

Really, take a second and do some investigation.

Because YES. Synthetic fuel can power ANY car out there. Just like current gasoline can, despite it being different from that of the 70s. Due to additives. SYNTHETIC additives. You can run ANY car on ethanol too. all it needs is a visit to a professional garage for it's ignition to work properly. there's no difference to Synth fuels.

I will guarantee you this: just like at some point everywhere 'V power' started popping up alongside classic RON95, you will find a moment where Synth fuel will become available at the gas station.

And i will once again remind you of the following:

A 150 million dollar F1 car, from it's tires, wheels, brakes, engine and everything, has 0,0 % relevance to the road.
They didn't in the 70s, 80s, 90s, they never will.

Meanwhile we're sending rockets into space for 'fun' travel, and you honestly think electric power will take over

[wesley123]

Road car PUs are becoming smaller and more efficient. Large capacity NA engines don't have a market many places outside of the USA.

again, have a look at the Gordon Murray supercar, The new V12 Countach, New Bugatti's, etc.
Mclaren doesn't build hatchbacks. RedBull is a energy drink manufacturer - that's building a V12 hypercar btw,
Aston Martin neither builds priuses.

Is 'rich people who will literally buy anything with a large price tag' really a fair market to judge the current environment with? Lamborghini, for example, is aiming to go fully electric by 2025. Every other car maker has gone for smaller displacement engines. The few rich-guy cars you name are the odd ones out, even in their own market.

because they are forced to it due to rediculous 'green' laws which will soon become obsolete by the introduction of synth fuels, and there will become a balance/equilibrium between EV, HEV, and ICE.

We clearly disagree on this, but I wouldn't call laws that literally are aimed to keep our planet habitable as "rediculous".

Perhaps look into what is being concidered for the future, again, especially, with Synth fuels in mind.
Also, think about why Tesla isn't in F1.

The sole car manufacturer that is part of the eFuels Alliance is Mazda, the rest of the partners are -you guessed it!- oil and chemical companies. You know the companies who are largely the cause of the issue, and businesswise have the most incentive for it to work out, else their market is gone.

With the advent of electric cars, synthetic fuels have little to no use in the consumer market. Their use will mostly be limited to markets that realistically wouldn't be able to be electrified in the coming 10 years. Think of airplanes, for example, Or cars for rich guys that won't actually ever drive them and just buy them because they can.

Ehm, no. Synth fuel will be the wonder provider that'll get people to continue enjoying combustion engines without being attacked destroying the world through toxic pollution. Synth fuels will have other issues to adress but is the way to go forward and extend ICE engines life several decades the least.

Literally no car manufacturer, apart from Mazda, supports the initiative. The vast majority of car manufacturers have even stopped ICE developments and focus fully on electric. Or do you think they're going to throw up a huge syke, and switch back to ICE development after spending billions upon billions on electric development and infrastructure?

you seem to be void of any knowledge of it's capacity and what's already out there. Not only is it actual PEANUTS to let a diesel engine run on vegetable oil (yes i'm being overly simplified, but the fuel in F1 cars isn't the same you get in the gas station either). It's been around for more than a decade, the 'system' if you will however prevents it from happening/being allowed.

Where can I buy those synthetic fuels? As far as I'm aware they aren't universally available, prohibitively expensive(unless you're a rich guy), and mixed with actual fuels at best.

Because YES. Synthetic fuel can power ANY car out there.

This is a case of "just because you can doesn't mean you should".

Meanwhile we're sending rockets into space for 'fun' travel, and you honestly think electric power will take over

Apart from the fact that it is literally happening in plain sight, what has space travel got to do with that? You really seem to be keen to pick out the smallest, barely relatable points to suit your argument, while missing the actual picture.

[Just_a_fan]

Road car PUs are becoming smaller and more efficient. Large capacity NA engines don't have a market many places outside of the USA.

again, have a look at the Gordon Murray supercar, The new V12 Countach, New Bugatti's, etc.
Mclaren doesn't build hatchbacks. RedBull is a energy drink manufacturer - that's building a V12 hypercar btw,
Aston Martin neither builds priuses.

Gordon Murray's car is a limited edition - 100 units. That's it. The Aston Martin / Red Bull thing is likewise limited edition - 150 units for the road, fewer for the track. Bugatti is making 500 Chirons. McLaren make hundreds of car but they're again not making huge numbers like VW, or Toyota or any other of the cars that we all buy.

Because YES. Synthetic fuel can power ANY car out there. Just like current gasoline can, despite it being different from that of the 70s. Due to additives. SYNTHETIC additives. You can run ANY car on ethanol too. all it needs is a visit to a professional garage for it's ignition to work properly. there's no difference to Synth fuels.

Yes, synthetic fuels can power any car. But can they power every car? Because we need to make ridiculously large amounts to replace fossil fuels. How much? Well the USA alone used 18 million barrels of oil per day in 2020 of which 8 million barrels per day was petrol (gasoline). That's 1.27 billion litres of gasoline per day. 460 billion litres of gasoline a year. And that's just the USA. The USA uses about 1/5 of the world's oil. So you can see that we need to make trillions of litres of synthetic fuel every year.

Now where is the resource for that? Where is the feedstock? And the energy? Because making synthetic fuel requires creating hydrogen, it requires capturing CO2 and it requires bringing these together. All of that requires energy. How much energy do you think is going to be needed to make a trillion litres of synthetic fuel every year? More than is needed to power the equivalent number of EVs for the same number of miles, that's for sure.

Edit: I've seen figures of 20kWh / litre of synthetic fuel. So 460 billion litres needs 9.2x10^12 kWh of electricity. The US used 3.8x10^12 kWh of electricity in 2020. So they'd need to use 2.4 times as much electricity to make the fuel as they used for everything else.

So, no, synthetic fuels are not going to save the ICE.