2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[basti313]

What confuses me is that he hasn’t come out at all with their preferred solution. I understand you’re lobbying and in principle I would agree driver safety is paramount. Don’t think anyone disagrees. The FIA has picked it up quickly but somehow he’s not happy with the proposed solution. Which is his right of course, but what do you actually WANT

Those details wont be made publicly, quite understandably

No, but it is obviously about suspension. Toto is clearly lobbying against the current suspension as you could hear in the Baku interviews. They want the 3rd element back to have damping once the rear drops.
In my point of view this is the only way to save the current design.

But to be honest...it is a bit strange for P3 lobbying for a rule change to make it P1, which will obviously happen once they get their suspension. Especially since stopping this dropping of the rear was a core point of the current rules...now they do it again and lobby with the resulting issues for getting the old status back. Classic.

[siskue2005]

What confuses me is that he hasn’t come out at all with their preferred solution. I understand you’re lobbying and in principle I would agree driver safety is paramount. Don’t think anyone disagrees. The FIA has picked it up quickly but somehow he’s not happy with the proposed solution. Which is his right of course, but what do you actually WANT

Those details wont be made publicly, quite understandably

No, but it is obviously about suspension. Toto is clearly lobbying against the current suspension as you could hear in the Baku interviews. They want the 3rd element back to have damping once the rear drops.
In my point of view this is the only way to save the current design.

Do you have any source for that claim

But to be honest...it is a bit strange for P3 lobbying for a rule change to make it P1, which will obviously happen once they get their suspension. Especially since stopping this dropping of the rear was a core point of the current rules...now they do it again and lobby with the resulting issues for getting the old status back. Classic.

Everyone are allowed to lobby, every team on the grid have done it, and teams have been doing it since the dawn of F1. Only the fair weather fans have issues with this.

[ringo]

The car is better relatively to the others when the ride height is up for all. Just goes to show how poorly it operates at lower heights.
Lewis and George are doing a good job. No mistakes like the other teams. George is really showing his class and bravery.
He has been very bold. And I guess psychologically the world is his oyster now, coming from the back of the grid in a Williams.
Lewis seems to have the pace, but he just doesn't seem as sharp as he used in this car. Even from the onboard.. It's as if he cannot adapt to this new formula as well as the others. He has take more laps before he gets confidence, and that's the difference between him and George. George has about a tenth on average in qualifying. Either by set up or just confidence, or just speed. But I see where Lewis is biased towards the race all the time.
Tomorrow should be good now that Lewis is at the front. let's see what type of pace he has. Also George should be able to race his way up.
I do wonder though, where does the team go with this car. It's almost as if there are no more excuses or cards to play.

Quite something of a post, coming from someone who was a staunch opposer of George getting into Mercedes team. The extent to which you went to denounce George was that, you often cited Latifi as a better driver than George until a point where Latifi had scored some points ahead of George. Your argument was that George hasn't done anything worth deserving a shot at Mercedes. Good to see a change of heart. Judging talented drivers in a bad cars is always prone to mistakes and if such judgement is also biased from a point of view that, the rookie might upset the apple cart of one's favorite driver, then it's even more of a sham.

This unwanted, difficult phase is probably good for George to embed more deeper into the team, trying to find ways of turning things around and in the process become an even better driver. Finally when he gets a good equipment, he would be in far better shape to handle championship challenges.

What is your problem?
I am not biased as you are. I will observe racing and call it as it is. I do not need to defend LH reputation. The man is racing for 15 years and is still fast enough. Look on Danny Ric. At one point fans such as yourself were rating him as the fastest, the latest of late brakers, and better than LH. What has become of him?
I think a lot of new fans underestimate, how dificult it is to be on top of the sport for 15 years; even when faced with extremely good teammates.
It's a new formula, with new, heavy bouncy cars. This formula favours the racing sim generation. Goerge, Max, Charles Lando, will thrive with these bouncy cars that require stamina and youth to drive the best. The drivers cant even see the apex of the turns.
Right now George is beating Lewis. I'm not such a fanboy that I will deny that. A lot of it has to do with the formula change.
But from what I explained in the post, the true story is that Lewis has been setting up for the race, and has been faster in the races. George has been very luck this season, and his qualy bias, and possibly setup balance is paying off.
Finaly, I do not think Lewis is hooked into this car and he is yet to adapt to it.
His downfall is his experience. He has to unlearn how he has driven some tracks and relearn them with these new cars that cannot ride kerbs. And not being a simulator guy to get used to the cars is probably a weakness.

Nonetheless I do think LH can get a win this year.

[chrisc90]

Everyone are allowed to lobby, every team on the grid have done it, and teams have been doing it since the dawn of F1. Only the fair weather fans have issues with this.

Wasn’t you just complaining about all the things that have just changed in the last years of F1. Must be a fair weather fan

[ringo]

Toto is perfectly right.
From a safety grounds the formula is flawed. The formula should be designed in a way that the car is safe within all possible range of adjustments permitted by the regulation.
If a team is setting up the car to be the faster it can be, the permitted adjustments that allow them to chase lap time must fall within a safe mode of operation for the cars.
You cannot have a regulation and tell the teams that the regulation is unsafe, it is up to you to come right up against wherever that blurred line of safety is. It is irresponsible.

The FIA need to make changes to the regulations for the floor. They know what to do to limit the ground effect. Have a flat entry at the front of the floor. That's all it takes. Or mandate a specific cut out in the floor that limits the ground effect.
If nothing is done this year, at least return to a flatter floor next year.

[siskue2005]

Everyone are allowed to lobby, every team on the grid have done it, and teams have been doing it since the dawn of F1. Only the fair weather fans have issues with this.

Wasn’t you just complaining about all the things that have just changed in the last years of F1. Must be a fair weather fan

No, I was saying about all the things Mercedes agreed to change following lobbying from other teams. I was saying about how much Merc have bend over back for other teams and hence when the shoe is on the other side Merc are quiet understandably pi$$ed off when others are very narrow-minded.


Here is my original post.

WOLFF SLAMS ‘PITIFUL’ RIVALS AS FIA INTERVENTION ISSUE ESCALATES

Mercedes Formula 1 boss Toto Wolff has accused “pitiful” rivals of being “disingenuous” and playing “political games” while the FIA tries to help address the worst traits of the 2022 cars.

The new ground-effect cars are run low and stiff and have suffered from a mix of porpoising and poor ride quality in general.

Now that several drivers from different teams have complained about back pain and raised concerns over potential long-term consequences of driving such cars, the FIA has intervened on safety grounds.

It will force teams to alter their set-ups if they are found to be breaching a yet-to-be-defined limit for vertical oscillations drivers can be subjected to, and is exploring potential changes to the technical regulations for the future.

Some teams, including Mercedes’ arch-rival Red Bull, have either criticised the prospect of a mid-season rule change, expressed disappointment at the timing of the FIA’s technical directive on the eve of the Canadian GP weekend, or accused Mercedes of using the issue to try to get a rule change that will help the performance deficit it currently suffers from.

The situation appears to have reached boiling point in Montreal, where Wolff is said to have made his dissatisfaction very clear in a meeting of F1’s team bosses.

He said after qualifying in Canada: “This is a sport where you’re trying to keep a competitive advantage or gain it, but this situation has clearly gone too far.

Read more:
https://the-race.com/formula-1/wolff-sl ... escalates/

I agree, Mercedes have bend over back in the last 8 years, even helping Honda with engine issues (roumours)
Agreeing to all the demands Redbull put up like Engine freeze from 2022 first race onwards etc
Opening up the engine freeze since 2015 for everyone to catch up
They even decided to not to go ahead with the protest after AD 2021 in the name of the sport.
No wonder he is not happy, and has every right to say so.

[siskue2005]

Toto is perfectly right.
From a safety grounds the formula is flawed. The formula should be designed in a way that the car is safe within all possible range of adjustments permitted by the regulation.
If a team is setting up the car to be the faster it can be, the permitted adjustments that allow them to chase lap time must fall within a safe mode of operation for the cars.
You cannot have a regulation and tell the teams that the regulation is unsafe, it is up to you to come right up against wherever that blurred line of safety is. It is irresponsible.

The FIA need to make changes to the regulations for the floor. They know what to do to limit the ground effect. Have a flat entry at the front of the floor. That's all it takes. Or mandate a specific cut out in the floor that limits the ground effect.
If nothing is done this year, at least return to a flatter floor next year.

I agree, if its related to safety there should be some changes

[chrisc90]

Toto is perfectly right.
From a safety grounds the formula is flawed. The formula should be designed in a way that the car is safe within all possible range of adjustments permitted by the regulation.
If a team is setting up the car to be the faster it can be, the permitted adjustments that allow them to chase lap time must fall within a safe mode of operation for the cars.
You cannot have a regulation and tell the teams that the regulation is unsafe, it is up to you to come right up against wherever that blurred line of safety is. It is irresponsible.

The FIA need to make changes to the regulations for the floor. They know what to do to limit the ground effect. Have a flat entry at the front of the floor. That's all it takes. Or mandate a specific cut out in the floor that limits the ground effect.
If nothing is done this year, at least return to a flatter floor next year.

He's right to want the rules changed to suit him?

Others have managed to make a car that works perfectly well.

Teams know how to stop the bouncing.

Merc deliberately running their car on the bump stops. What do they expect?

The Merc agenda is to get active suspension, or fancier suspension brought in.

FIA have brought /bringing in rules that will reduce the amount of bouncing, and Merc will see that as being the solution for rest of this season (inevitable) and probably next.

We will see who has the real problems when these new sensors are brought in showing the oscillations the drivers get on the straights/under bouncing. If a lot of teams are under the limit....no real reason to change the rules really is there.

[silver]

Mercedes is in urgent need of a genius techno managerial figure head like Ross Brawn in this situation. Unfortunately what they have is a confused, disturbed business man trying to lead a troubled team without having any experience of solving difficult team situations. Toto going around and making all kinds of nonsense statements with street thug like accusations to other teams is not going help the team one bit and my hunch is, the spiral downward is going to be faster with this sort of approach. With where he has positioned himself and seeming lack of abilities to influence other teams to have a buy-in, it would be nigh impossible to drive home any regulatory change advantage that can help the team. I doubt the changes that FIA would introduce further down the line, would be more watershed moments for team and might all of it go against like the recent TD.

[Stu]

At least two pages of deleted posts later…

THIS IS MERCEDES 2020 TEAM THREAD, KEEP IT ON TOPIC.

[2thefront]

Looks like we can quit pretending Mercedes is so far out to lunch with the car. They haven't been THAT far off this year. It's OK for them to not be the fastest, although they might be next race.

[lh13]

Well that was unexpected from Hamilton. Good result.

[organic]

Stunning drive by Hamilton. After having next to no running with the setup all weekend they had pace that at times was the quickest. At SC restart, RB were apparently worried about Ham

W13 could be on the right track for some circuits

[chrisc90]

Not a bad drive from both Merc drivers today. Taking advantage of the VSC and the SC at the right time to make their stops. Would have been nice to have seen a better strategy from Alonso and Perez not retiring, but such is racing.

They're due upgrade at Silverstone aint they?

[XRayF1]

He's right to want the rules changed to suit him?

Others have managed to make a car that works perfectly well.

Teams know how to stop the bouncing.

Merc deliberately running their car on the bump stops. What do they expect?

The Merc agenda is to get active suspension, or fancier suspension brought in.

FIA have brought /bringing in rules that will reduce the amount of bouncing, and Merc will see that as being the solution for rest of this season (inevitable) and probably next.

We will see who has the real problems when these new sensors are brought in showing the oscillations the drivers get on the straights/under bouncing. If a lot of teams are under the limit....no real reason to change the rules really is there.

Of course, he is right to try to change the rules that do not suit his team/drivers/cars.
This. Is. His. Job.
It is further called lobbying, is highly political, and for the most part usually not successful.
But he can try changing the minds of the rule makers and team leads as well.

As for porpoising and bouncing, looking at the Ferraris, the Alfas, ... and yes, of course especially the Mercedes, I doubt that the new sensor/accelleration arithmetics will not yield something which might ask FIA to impose something.

I have to repeat, Toto is doing his job on all fronts.
Technical and political.