A great F1 passing study (must read!)

[Andres125sx]

But much sooner, 80´s for example. This is not an aero dependant car

Frankly, if you're trying to claim that the 80s were the paragon of F1 racing, you need to go back and actually watch some races.

Many races were dull as --- back then. The fact that we had one dull race and a dull track doesn't mean that the current F1 is broken. We have in fact had several superb races this year, far more than you generally got "back in the day".

No I´m not trying to glorify anything, if you read my whole argumentation, I´m just pointing out the root of the problem (IMO of course) of the boring series F1 is becoming

I really don´t bother if the problem started last seasson or 30 years back, I just want to find the solution, and IMHO the solution is far from those FIA is implementing

Sure DRS and rubish tires provide some entertainment, it´s better to see artificial overtakings than a procesion. But it´s artificial yet

Aerodynamics have evolved enough to re-think the approach. Wings should start playing a secondary role I think. They could generate more than enough downforce with better solutions for the show. Wings create a lot of drag and turbulences behind the car, and IMO that is the main problem light years ahead of next one. Remove those turbulences and overtaking, real overtaking, would become posible again

For example, ground effect and active and much smaller wings. I´d prefer banning wings, but not sure if they could generate some significative downforce, but that should be the goal. Meanwhile, some really small but active wings should do the job. Even an Audi TT has active wings, F1 banning this is absurd

Add to that tires that last the whole race to avoid the marbles problem, plus ceramic brakes that last the whole seasson to extend the brakings, and overtaking would be much easier even with those hard tires than currently with rubish tires and different strategies, and they would be real, not due to different strategies

[langwadt]

The Audi TT doesn't have a wing, very few road cars do, it has a spoiler

[Tim.Wright]

Aerodynamics have evolved enough to re-think the approach. Wings should start playing a secondary role I think. They could generate more than enough downforce with better solutions for the show. Wings create a lot of drag and turbulences behind the car, and IMO that is the main problem light years ahead of next one. Remove those turbulences and overtaking, real overtaking, would become posible again

For example, ground effect and active and much smaller wings. I´d prefer banning wings, but not sure if they could generate some significative downforce, but that should be the goal. Meanwhile, some really small but active wings should do the job. Even an Audi TT has active wings, F1 banning this is absurd

Add to that tires that last the whole race to avoid the marbles problem, plus ceramic brakes that last the whole seasson to extend the brakings, and overtaking would be much easier even with those hard tires than currently with rubish tires and different strategies, and they would be real, not due to different strategies

A few phyical notes:

1. Reducing drag is going to reduce the slipstream effect which will be working against the gains that you will supposedly make due to the lack of dirtry air. Consider also, that there haven't been complaints about dirty air in the corners for some years now. So what problem are you solving by removing the wings?

2. Tyres for the whole race have been done before. It resulted in boring racing and was even dangerous as cars remained out on tyres damaged by flat spotting. Aks Kimi what he thinks of that idea.

3. Braking distances have very little to do with the brake material. Contrary to popular thought, the switch from steel to ceramic or carbon composite was to reduce weight significantly. Stopping distance is basically a function of the tyre grip and downforce available.

[turbof1]

The issue is that the fia pushed the teams into, what I like to call, micro-aerodynamics. With more and more restrictions teams were forced to make every mm count, which creates a high level of sensivity.

By now you can only fully solve that by turning the sport into a spec series (no I'm not in favour of that). An other option would be to allow a much bigger degree of ground effect, coupled with forcing team to put devices on their cars to straighten airflow again.

[Richard]

You can pick whatever scapegoat you like, aero, tyres, engines, etc you like. The issue is that the technology is so mature and the teams are so professional. This means they rapidly converge on the optimum configuration. Hence the cars have comparable performance which means we'll never see the performance difference required for one car to overtake another.

[Tim.Wright]

Why do you need an inherent performance difference for there to be overtaking? The best racing for overtaking and wheel to wheel battles are always in the spec feeder series.

When you have significant performance differences, they all form up on the grid in their performance order and the pole driver goes the fastest and the last place goes the slowest and the field naturally spreads out without any overtaking.

[Richard]

You're right, I should elaborate. Firstly, it is said that F1 cars need a 1 second difference in lap time for a unaided overtake because of aerodynamics. There was only 1.1 second from pole to 6th in Russia, and from 4th to 10th. That's why we saw Massa's Williams (Q3 Bottas = 1.38.9) stuck behind Perez (Q2 1:40.2).

I was also thinking of performance of the whole team, reliability of the car, the consistency of the driver for lap after lap, the exhaustive preparation for each race, the umpteen permutations in the simulator and strategy planning. Nothing is left to chance, so there are no heroic moments that people remember from previous eras because those heroics need a driver out of position, or struggling with a broken gearbox etc. Nowadays it's much more professional which is good from a technical perspective, but probably lacking in drama and emotion in terms of spectacle.

These are of course generalisations, overtaking does still happen but a lot less than previous years when the multiple factors that improve lap times and race position were a bit more mixed up, aka random.

[Andres125sx]

A few phyical notes:

1. Reducing drag is going to reduce the slipstream effect which will be working against the gains that you will supposedly make due to the lack of dirtry air. Consider also, that there haven't been complaints about dirty air in the corners for some years now. So what problem are you solving by removing the wings?

Sorry but I see almost on every single race cars trying to overtake that once they see they can´t, are forced to stop the attpempts and keep around 2 seconds gap with the front car to avoid destroying his tires. Alonso do this mathematically if he can´t overtake in around 2 laps as much. First they can´t overtake because of the dirty air, and then they can´t keep into the slipstream because of the dirty air that would force his tires too much

So I see two consequences of dirty air constantly, this seasson, last one, the previous.... It´s better than some seassons back, but still here

Without dirty air, even if the slipstream almost dissapear, they could keep into it constantly, taking advantage of any small mistake the driver in front do. And those would increase if they have a car pushing them so close constantly. Also, even with a small slipstream, if the car behind can start the straights almost touching with his front wing the rear tires of the car in front, they wouldn´t need too much slipstream, just a little bit and they will have a chance.

But even without any slipstream, they would have the chance to do an aggresive braking and try the overtaking if they are so close to the car in front, something wich is not possible today because they´re forced to start the straights with a good distance between the cars. Not even DRS can solve this as we see oftenly, too much distance

2. Tyres for the whole race have been done before. It resulted in boring racing and was even dangerous as cars remained out on tyres damaged by flat spotting. Aks Kimi what he thinks of that idea.

Replied that on the race thread, so this is a copy paste

It resulted in boring races.... if rules does not allow cars to overtake

Overtakings due to different strategies/tires are artificial, as DRS ones. F1 does need new rules that allow real overtakings. DRS, tires, etc are all patches to hide the root of the problem, but don´t solve it

Ground effect with smaller wings, ban of carbon brakes, stop racing at tracks like Monaco... those could solve the problem and make F1 a real entertainment again, not this artificial and boring circus we have right now

3. Braking distances have very little to do with the brake material. Contrary to popular thought, the switch from steel to ceramic or carbon composite was to reduce weight significantly. Stopping distance is basically a function of the tyre grip and downforce available.

So steel brakes would allow 6G brakings too?

Would steel support the generated temperatures? I think the won´t, but I´m not an expert so I´m looking forward reading your opinion


What do you think about brakes that should last a whole seasson, or at least some GPs? That would increase the braking distance any material the brakes are, so overtaking should be easier.

[Andres125sx]

An other option would be to allow a much bigger degree of ground effect, coupled with forcing team to put devices on their cars to straighten airflow again.

That´s exactly what I´d love to see

[Moose]

But much sooner, 80´s for example. This is not an aero dependant car

Frankly, if you're trying to claim that the 80s were the paragon of F1 racing, you need to go back and actually watch some races.

Many races were dull as --- back then. The fact that we had one dull race and a dull track doesn't mean that the current F1 is broken. We have in fact had several superb races this year, far more than you generally got "back in the day".

No I´m not trying to glorify anything, if you read my whole argumentation, I´m just pointing out the root of the problem (IMO of course) of the boring series F1 is becoming

Well that's kind of my point - I'm asserting that F1 is not becoming a boring series. We've so far this year had 15 excellent races (hell, even Borain was exciting), and one dull one.

What's your evidence that F1 is becoming boring?

[Tim.Wright]

A few phyical notes:

1. Reducing drag is going to reduce the slipstream effect which will be working against the gains that you will supposedly make due to the lack of dirtry air. Consider also, that there haven't been complaints about dirty air in the corners for some years now. So what problem are you solving by removing the wings?

Sorry but I see almost on every single race cars trying to overtake that once they see they can´t, are forced to stop the attpempts and keep around 2 seconds gap with the front car to avoid destroying his tires.

Why are you attributing the overtaking difficulties to dirty air? I have not heard a driver mention this as a problem since the new aero regs in 2009.

3. Braking distances have very little to do with the brake material. Contrary to popular thought, the switch from steel to ceramic or carbon composite was to reduce weight significantly. Stopping distance is basically a function of the tyre grip and downforce available.

So steel brakes would allow 6G brakings too?

Yes absolutely.

If you want to reduce braking performance you need to either change the tyres, reduce downforce, limit disc and hydraulic dimensions or a mix of these things.

Forcing them to run a season on one set of brakes won't increase the braking distance. The only thing it will increase is the likelihood of a brake failure.

[Andres125sx]

Well that's kind of my point - I'm asserting that F1 is not becoming a boring series. We've so far this year had 15 excellent races (hell, even Borain was exciting), and one dull one.

Sorry but disagree, we´ve had some exciting race, and most of them quite boring

What's your evidence that F1 is becoming boring?

This race marked a first for me.. It was so boring I turned it off a third of the way thru and went out to wash the car. Came back, watched the rest, which confirmed I made the right choice.
This may be my last season.

This is not an exception. I´ve fallen asleep on some race too. Most friends stopped watching F1. There will always be F1 viewers, but they´re falling to atract average joe, to me that´s a big evidence

[Andres125sx]

Why are you attributing the overtaking difficulties to dirty air? I have not heard a driver mention this as a problem since the new aero regs in 2009.

Even if they don´t complain I see them strugling on track as I´ve explained, that´s the reason I´m attributing the overtakings to dirty air. Maybe they were used to cars generating much more dirty air and now they don´t see it that bad, but they still have problems chaising the car in front, so to me it´s pretty obvious

Yes absolutely.

If you want to reduce braking performance you need to either change the tyres, reduce downforce, limit disc and hydraulic dimensions or a mix of these things.

Forcing them to run a season on one set of brakes won't increase the braking distance. The only thing it will increase is the likelihood of a brake failure.

How can this be possible?

This is like saying hard tires would not decrease the grip, but only increase the likelihood of a failure.

Duration and perfomance are inversely proportional, or I´m missing something?

[Tim.Wright]

What you are missing is a brake system is (almost) always more powerful than the tyres.

Have you ever driven a car where it was impossible to lock up the brakes? Do you think this is an acceptable solution safety wise?

[Kingshark]

I have never seen cars being able to follow each other so closely through corners since the aerodynamic rule changes in 2009. Watch some of the dry races in 2007 to gain perspective of how boring F1 could be. 2005 was also pretty bad in that respect.