Martin Brundle: "Jenson Button is the most complete driver"

[mortigitempo]

So for example a driver who doesn't win this year anymore but became champion last year (hamilton) or raikkonen the year before are suddenly bad? 'Cause that is what your logic appoints.

In Raikkonen's case, up until Monaco he has been demonstrably bad this year. And disappointing for much of last year. But it doesn't make him a talentless or mediocre driver. He's proved that in the right circumstances and at the right time he's a top driver. Which is what Button is doing now. Perhaps not the best or most complete driver on the grid, but 5 wins and significantly outperforming a high quality team mate speaks for itself. The Brawn hasn't been a world faster by any stretch than every team at every race he's won. Top driving has put him in the position to take advantage of its pace.

[CHT]

Jenson is definitely the most complete driver AT THE MOMENT because he has got the fastest car and Ross Brawn's magical race strategy.

However I would take Ross's statement of comparing RB beating MS with JB beating RB with a pinch of salt.

whatever it is, this statement will be alot more convincing if it doesnt come from british media,

[Conceptual]

This brings me to an often overused cliche in business.

"What have you done for me lately?"

I think Jenson is driving superbly, and the looks of amazement on Ross Brawn's face every time Button ends up on pole or wins a race tells me that Jenson is deffinately impressing the boss, and that is never a bad thing.

The crew sees the numbers, and the comparisons to Reubens much better than anyone else on planet Earth.

If they think that he is doing an amazing job, then he really is. They would know if he was only winning by the work of other team members. They would know the exact differences between Jense and Reubens.

Telemetry doesn't lie, and it is currently writing a Cinderella story.

It is a shame that people on this board will find any reason to cut down his performance, simply to make themselves feel better about themselves, and their choice of favorites.

I think the further that Jenson pushes into the Championship with consistant wins/podiums that you will see a vast shift in the crowd from the Red flags/shirts/hats to the White and Neon Yellow! The front runner fans can only stand to not have their chosen win for so long until they switch. It has alot to do with the character of such people...

[sticky667]

i agree with Giblet.

he has definitely stepped up his game. I don't think he was ever bad, it was no secret the car was horrible in 07/08. Rubens outscoring him was meaningless since they were consistently failing to score or have even a reasonable pace. Reliability was horrendous too.

All of this good driver making a bad car work is complete BS. If the car is not up to it, the only way they can pull anything out of it is extreme conditions (multiple safety cars, rain, and other peoples' retirements)

Alonso won Singapore 08 because Piquet decided to make love to the wall and it worked in favor of his strategy, he qualified 15th!! That is hardly a "great driver" working miracles in a bad car.

Vettel won Monza 08 in the rain in an STR. Jenson won Hungary 06 in the rain in a BAR only because of Alonso's failure!

[Giblet]

Keep in mind that Bourdais qualified 4th in the same car in Monza 08, and turned a faster race lap then Vettel. Mechanical gremlins were the only thing holding him back from the a very likely podium. That doesn't take everything away from Vettel's win, but it does take away a lot.

That race was more car then driver, unless both drivers were sublime that day, and since I rate Bourdais much higher in driving ability then many of you, I consider it a possibility.

[Afterburner]

Alonso is the best driver on the grid since MS left F1, Alonso and Hakkinen were the only driver that could challenge MS in similar conditions to win the drivers championship, the rest of the drivers make too many mistakes when they are under pressure. Button started the championship on the front and hasn't been put to real pressure, he has a really calm and gentle style of driving but i think he is more or less the same has Rubens, they have the ability to win races but don't have, and never shown when they were young, the ability that separates them of the others that we already see in young drivers like Hamilton, Rosberg, Kubica, Vettel, etc.

[Giblet]

Rubens, albeit a little slower, is no slouch, and keeping Jenson honest.

Jenson knows he has to keep a leg up or Rubens will be there to swipe away at his point lead.

[ringo]

Rubens, albeit a little slower, is no slouch, and keeping Jenson honest.

Jenson knows he has to keep a leg up or Rubens will be there to swipe away at his point lead.

I agree, up to now i wont say Button is clearly better than Rubens, since Rubens has had more technical problems affecting his race. Button was also not able to set up his car and had to rely on Rubens' experience. His performance is not drastically better than his team mate's either. Maybe if he could set up himself and is able deal with the in race technical problems Rubens went through then i would say he is clearly better.
Rubens only seems worse because he is old and has had a few senior moments,
He has had some bad luck on the track, and seemed to doze off at certaion portions of a race but might just wake up in Turkey and show that he is virtually equal to button.

Barichello will eat away at the gap; at some point in time Button will be pressed and may not be able to take the pressure.

[Conceptual]

Rubens, albeit a little slower, is no slouch, and keeping Jenson honest.

Jenson knows he has to keep a leg up or Rubens will be there to swipe away at his point lead.

I agree, up to now i wont say Button is clearly better than Rubens, since Rubens has had more technical problems affecting his race. Button was also not able to set up his car and had to rely on Rubens' experience. His performance is not drastically better than his team mate's either. Maybe if he could set up himself and is able deal with the in race technical problems Rubens went through then i would say he is clearly better.
Rubens only seems worse because he is old and has had a few senior moments,
He has had some bad luck on the track, and seemed to doze off at certaion portions of a race but might just wake up in Turkey and show that he is virtually equal to button.

Barichello will eat away at the gap; at some point in time Button will be pressed and may not be able to take the pressure.

The teams have simulators that generate a specific performance range based upon its data. The cars that show to the races are pre-prepped to start at the beginning of a optimization phase, and be worked through the program. During this time, the teams have enormous computational power at their disposal to simulate changes in state of the car as it is driven around the track. The driver only has subjectively interpereted views of the objective reality that is the physics involved in running the course. It is more like tuning the car to the geometrically built matrix of the driver, or his "style", so they can lay down consistant laps on the edge of performance.

Just because a driver may share setup information does not mean that the other driver is not as good. It's like saying "Hey, if you stay in third gear here, and blip the throttle and steer to 16 degrees, you can hit 4th faster down the straight." It is communicating the behavior of the car and taking different paths to try to find the optimum. I read before that teams were pursuing asymetric setup paths for the cars, just to see what one proves fastest, and then setting both cars to that for the next session.

To me, what makes a driver great is his ability to adapt himself to the behavior of the car and the reality that encompasses the racetrack. When a driver is able to understand it at a fundamental level, and manipulate it with the most casual of competence.

It is not what they do on the outside, it is what they do on the inside that makes them special.

[Washngo]

Did you ever hear such rubbish.

well, if you are going to start a thread, at least quote the man properly.

What MB said was: Jenson Button proved, with his fifth victory of the season in Monaco, that he is the most complete driver on the Formula 1 grid at the moment.

What difference does that make?

Has Alonso upped sticks and left F1?

Or Hamilton?

Or Vettel?


All 3 are better than Button. Cases could be made for a considerable number of other drivers being better as well.

"what difference does that make?"

Well, it makes a lot of difference. What he is basically saying is Button "right now" is on it, and in this Brawn car he is doing the perfect job: speed, aggression, conservatism, all at the right time.

MB puts a very compelling argument for this viewpoint. I don't necessarily agree, but quite a thorough argument nonetheless.

But he is not saying Button is the best driver on the grid. Your mis-quote implies this. If you don't understand the phrase 'at the moment' let me explain: MB is saying JB is doing the complete job, and there is noone doing a better job at the moment.

Got it? And since you ask the question, yes, JB has committed less mistakes and done a better job than Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel so far this year.

Do I think JB is the best driver on the grid? No, and neither does Brundle.

[kilcoo316]

"what difference does that make?"

Well, it makes a lot of difference.

Balls it does.

Either your the best* driver on the grid, or your not.


*what else can most complete mean?




People age, and lose their edge, but Alonso et al are not near there yet.

Button is far from the best driver on the grid. Saying he is on account of winning some races is seriously flawed.

Was Hill the best driver on the grid in 1996? Or Villeneuve in 1997?

[Washngo]

"what difference does that make?"

Well, it makes a lot of difference.

Balls it does.

Either your the best* driver on the grid, or your not.


*what else can most complete mean?




People age, and lose their edge, but Alonso et al are not near there yet.

Button is far from the best driver on the grid. Saying he is on account of winning some races is seriously flawed.

Was Hill the best driver on the grid in 1996? Or Villeneuve in 1997?

Read all of Brundle's article, rather than the first half sentence. Read all of my post, rather than the first few words, and then these things you find a bit confusing may start to make a little more sense. There's a good lad.

[kilcoo316]

Read all of Brundle's article, rather than the first half sentence. Read all of my post, rather than the first few words, and then these things you find a bit confusing may start to make a little more sense. There's a good lad.

Quoting one line does not mean I do not read the whole article, or the whole of your post.


Its a bit stupid quoting a whole passage and screwing up the thread, when all I need to quote is one line to indicate which post I am replying to.



I did read the whole article, and I did read your posts in their entirety.

Both are non-sensical.


Button cannot be the most complete driver on the grid as he is not the fastest - why is he not the fastest - because he has been trounced before.

Simple.


Trying to re-write history because he has the best car in the field and gets wins as a result is illogical.

[Giblet]

Kilcoo316, is there anyway that Button has upped his game one more level, and is now on par with the drivers that you mention?

I concede, not being a a huge Button fan, that this is true possibility.

Why can't you?

If we tried to prove every one of Brundle's statements that are wrong, we'd never leave this forum.

[Washngo]

Trying to re-write history because he has the best car in the field and gets wins as a result is illogical.

and you are missing the point. Once again, "at the moment". This means current form. Previous seasons therefore mean very little.

At the moment, these are the words which matter here, but you seem to be ignoring them.

At the moment.

At the moment.


..and now pause. Noone has mentioned Damon Hill or Villeneuve.

Yes, Button has the best car so far, but what you are saying is that he can't possibly be the most complete driver on the grid at the moment because he has the best car. Now that is nonsense.

Pretty much every race, every qualifying Button has done the maximum - he's either put in on pole, with a banzai lap, or he's won the race, and he's handily beaten his team mate, he has committed not a single mistake i can think of, he's conserved his tyres when needed(Monaco) when all others, especially Vettel struggled, he's carried out aggressive crucial passing moves when needed (great move on Hamilton's KERS shod McLaren comes to mind), and again he's done it all with no mistakes.

He is in the best car, but he is also driving quite brilliantly at the moment, and he is committing no mistakes, it is almost impossible to criticize him in any way.

Just as many considered Kubica to be the best driver last year on account of him extracting the very best out of the car and committing no mistakes, the same could be said of Button this year.

Is Button the best driver on the grid? No. Does Brundle think JB is the best driver on the grid? No. But it's very hard to argue that anyone else on the grid is doing a better job at the moment.


Now, does this make any sense now? Cos this is about as clear as i can do it.