The Fanboy Yin Yang Thread

[Cylinder]

At this point, Alonso would like to have Webber be the Ferrari No. 1.5 Driver and take poles and (hopefully) upper points positions from Vettel.

He probably does. Probably won't happen. Did anyone notice how he was practically Vettel's rear gunner today? He stayed 8-10s off Vettel, and every time Alonso got to within 1.5 seconds, blitzed him and pulled out a gap.

The key with Vettel is to get him RACING, he doesnt like racing, he's front runner, if you get get him to race as button showed in Canada last year.....things can happen.

I'd have agreed if you had said this maybe last year. He made overtakes before, but I wouldn't class any of them a "classy", and a lot were downright clumsy (using Sutil practically as a brake in Silverstone 2010)

But after Spa I'm not so sure to be honest. Of late he seems to have been very comfortable overtaking and defending, except with the booboo he had with Fernando at Monza. He's generally had the odd race where he makes one or two passes in the past (Monza 2011, Australia 2012), but Spa IMO was him for the first time cleanly moving up the field through traffic, and he did (to memory) a couple of passes too in Monza which were clean.

I think he was very good at Spa, I think he came through the field to second (after alonso and hamilton and some other fron runners got taken out).

I just think this notion that he is the fastest driver in the sport is such a nonsense, and it shows why F1 has the most fickle fans in sport, who make knee jerk reactions based on basic results, whist not taking into account the actual circumstances.

Example. "Vettel is now driving at the same standard as Alonso because Vettel has amassed lots of points"
Circumstance : Red Bull are now the fastest car in the sport again, thus Vettel is likely to amass more points, when red bull was not the fastest car, he was behind webber in the WDC.

Example "Massa is terrible, rubbish, crap, should leave ferrari"

Now two weeks later on forums you see "Massa is back to 2008 form, he's definately staying at ferrari"

F1 fans blow with the wind imo, alot of them really cannot understand the difference between the fastest drivers and the fastest cars, I thought after 2009 when even Jenson Button managed to look like Michael Schumacher and it took 6 months for people to understand it was simple car advantage....that these fans would understand, but 2011/12 has shown thats not the case.

[Cylinder]

Maybe if you insist on being blind. It just refutes "where was Vettel when his car wasn't fastest?",

Number do not decide who is better than who alone.

Example, in the first 9 races of the season.........when Mclaren was arguably the fastest car for the majority of those races.

Vettel scored about..............3 podiums and was behind his teammate in the WDC I believe....this is the guy the BBC calls the 8th best driver ever to drive in the history of F1..........

Not the "Super seb" of 2011 riight when he hardly had to race anyone right?

Note that in this same period, Alonso scored 5 podiums, in what most people consider the 3/4th fastest car in that period behind Mac, Red Bull and possibly Lotus.

The numbers game, ANYONE can play my son.

[raymondu999]

Example. "Vettel is now driving at the same standard as Alonso because Vettel has amassed lots of points"
Circumstance : Red Bull are now the fastest car in the sport again, thus Vettel is likely to amass more points, when red bull was not the fastest car, he was behind webber in the WDC.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but o hope you're open to rational debate. I didn't say Vettel was at Alonso's standard (since Spa) thanks to amassing points. In my view a driver has achieved his car's maximum when he cannot conceivably finish higher.

That's the same standard I hold everyone to - could they have achieved more points, realistically? If the answer is no, then they have achieved the maximum.

Alonso in Hungary for example. He couldn't keep pace with the Lotuses, Red Bulls or McLarens, and he managed to hold a train of cars for a massive distance. I would call that the maximum - because it was not in the car+driver to catch and pass those ahead of him.

In my view, in Spa, Vettel + RB8 did not have it in him to catch Button+MP4-27. In Monza (other than the fact he retired, and. Received a drive-through) he was on course to finish behind Perez, the two McLarens and two Ferraris. In laptime terms I do not believe it was in the driver+car package to catch the McLarens, Ferraris and Perez. If we disregard the penalty, I'd have called it the maximum.

There is a stigma that Vettel is good only because of the car, and I acknowledge that. In my view however he has driven as well as Alonso, since Spa, not really making big mistakes, and only ever finishes behind another car when the car isn't up to the challenge.

I would actually say the same for Hamilton and Alonso - though the extent of Hamilton's car trouble clouds the picture for Japan and Korea somewhat, making it more difficult to judge that.

[LionKing]

Maybe if you insist on being blind. It just refutes "where was Vettel when his car wasn't fastest?",

Number do not decide who is better than who alone.

Example, in the first 9 races of the season.........when Mclaren was arguably the fastest car for the majority of those races.

Vettel scored about..............3 podiums and was behind his teammate in the WDC I believe....this is the guy the BBC calls the 8th best driver ever to drive in the history of F1..........

Not the "Super seb" of 2011 riight when he hardly had to race anyone right?

Note that in this same period, Alonso scored 5 podiums, in what most people consider the 3/4th fastest car in that period behind Mac, Red Bull and possibly Lotus.

The numbers game, ANYONE can play my son.

I don't think you are willing to comprehend my dad

The results are not a number game. I also gave example of Australian race how Vettel performed against Lewis in a faster car. He beat Lewis at Monaco starting like 6 places behind, etc etc.

If Alonso has a car that is good in wet and two of the races are affected by rain, then it doesn't mean that he did that in a 3/4th fastest car.

Vettel can not do much about his alternator failing. He was in front of Webber 85 to 79 at the end of 7th race. At Europe his car failed and Webber got 12 points to go in front. That was the only reason he was behind at the end of 8th race. He is now 63 points clear of his teammate. When his car doesn't fail, this is what he does...

[myurr]

Example. "Vettel is now driving at the same standard as Alonso because Vettel has amassed lots of points"
Circumstance : Red Bull are now the fastest car in the sport again, thus Vettel is likely to amass more points, when red bull was not the fastest car, he was behind webber in the WDC.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but o hope you're open to rational debate. I didn't say Vettel was at Alonso's standard (since Spa) thanks to amassing points. In my view a driver has achieved his car's maximum when he cannot conceivably finish higher.

That's the same standard I hold everyone to - could they have achieved more points, realistically? If the answer is no, then they have achieved the maximum.

Alonso in Hungary for example. He couldn't keep pace with the Lotuses, Red Bulls or McLarens, and he managed to hold a train of cars for a massive distance. I would call that the maximum - because it was not in the car+driver to catch and pass those ahead of him.

In my view, in Spa, Vettel + RB8 did not have it in him to catch Button+MP4-27. In Monza (other than the fact he retired, and. Received a drive-through) he was on course to finish behind Perez, the two McLarens and two Ferraris. In laptime terms I do not believe it was in the driver+car package to catch the McLarens, Ferraris and Perez. If we disregard the penalty, I'd have called it the maximum.

There is a stigma that Vettel is good only because of the car, and I acknowledge that. In my view however he has driven as well as Alonso, since Spa, not really making big mistakes, and only ever finishes behind another car when the car isn't up to the challenge.

I would actually say the same for Hamilton and Alonso - though the extent of Hamilton's car trouble clouds the picture for Japan and Korea somewhat, making it more difficult to judge that.

After Spa I would agree with you, Vettel has upped his game and is driving well. But before Spa he put in some very average performances mixed with strong performances. And that is where I think the perception, and criticism, has come from. You see Hamilton and Alonso getting the most out of their cars and being held back by their teams - through lack of development, pace, setup, operational errors, and so on. And then you have Vettel who hasn't always extracted the most from the car, who now all of a sudden is dominating everything.

It just plays on peoples sense of fairness. For the Vettel fans it seems like everything is now fair that Vettel is able to show how good he can be. To others it seems like its really unfair that Vettel is having another championship gift wrapped for him through car advantage whilst the drivers they see as performing the best this season don't have a fair shot at the title.

[Cylinder]

Maybe if you insist on being blind. It just refutes "where was Vettel when his car wasn't fastest?",

Number do not decide who is better than who alone.

Example, in the first 9 races of the season.........when Mclaren was arguably the fastest car for the majority of those races.

Vettel scored about..............3 podiums and was behind his teammate in the WDC I believe....this is the guy the BBC calls the 8th best driver ever to drive in the history of F1..........

Not the "Super seb" of 2011 riight when he hardly had to race anyone right?

Note that in this same period, Alonso scored 5 podiums, in what most people consider the 3/4th fastest car in that period behind Mac, Red Bull and possibly Lotus.

The numbers game, ANYONE can play my son.

I don't think you are willing to comprehend my dad

The results are not a number game. I also gave example of Australian race how Vettel performed against Lewis in a faster car. He beat Lewis at Monaco starting like 6 places behind, etc etc.

If Alonso has a car that is good in wet and two of the races are affected by rain, then it doesn't mean that he did that in a 3/4th fastest car.

Vettel can not do much about his alternator failing.

Okay, I am going to stop you here because you are are not getting it.

CIRCUMSTANCES play a part in deciding who is better than who, not just numbers. You pulled up some table of numbers as some kind of proof of Vettel driving better than Hamilton, when those numbers do not take into account CIRCUMSTANCES.

I dont even know why I am defending Hamilton, but his title race has been decided by botched pit stop after botched pit stop and car failures/bad luck. Very simple. What you provided in the form of a table of numbers doesnt take that into account.

Here is what I am telling you about Vettel.

1st 9 races of the season when he didnt have the rocketship........3 podiums. (Alonso scored 5 in a slower car)
Behind his team mate in the WDC.

Now it doesn't take a genius to work out that this isnt the "Senna like" seb of 2011, so what do you think happened.....do you think it's possible that once his mega 2011 car advatange was gone....so was his dominance. Because at this point in the season, co-incidently when he car was not fastest, he looks nowhere near as dominant as he does now............co-incidently, when his car is the fastest.

In other words, It's pretty clear the CAR is a major factor in seb's dominance.

[LionKing]

After Spa I would agree with you, Vettel has upped his game and is driving well. But before Spa he put in some very average performances mixed with strong performances. And that is where I think the perception, and criticism, has come from. You see Hamilton and Alonso getting the most out of their cars and being held back by their teams - through lack of development, pace, setup, operational errors, and so on. And then you have Vettel who hasn't always extracted the most from the car, who now all of a sudden is dominating everything.

It just plays on peoples sense of fairness. For the Vettel fans it seems like everything is now fair that Vettel is able to show how good he can be. To others it seems like its really unfair that Vettel is having another championship gift wrapped for him through car advantage whilst the drivers they see as performing the best this season don't have a fair shot at the title.

Alonso did as good as he could but not Lewis. Otherwise he would have won a race before Canada and certainly before his teammate. He would have let Vettel beat him at Monaco. Australia...

Can I ask at which races Vettel did not extract the potential of RBR?

[Cylinder]

Can I ask at which races Vettel did not extract the potential of RBR?

Some of the races where his team-mate was outqualifying him, beating him and leading him in the WDC perhaps?

[zonk]

will You all stop this fan boy gibberish? this is a race tread. to discus race in Korea performance to my understanding.

[LionKing]

Okay, I am going to stop you here because you are are not getting it.

Now it doesn't take a genius to work out that this isnt the "Senna like" seb of 2011, so what do you think happened.....do you think it's possible that once his mega 2011 car advatange was gone....so was his dominance. Because at this point in the season, co-incidently when he car was not fastest, he looks nowhere near as dominant as he does now............co-incidently, when his car is the fastest.

In other words, It's pretty clear the CAR is a major factor in seb's dominance.

I explained it to you Vettel was in front of Webber at the end of 7th race. At the next race due his DNF, instead of increasing his lead he fell behind Webber who finished the race in 4th. And yet the stupid argument about him being behind of Webberis repeated. What is special about 9th race anyway...

I think it is obvious who is not getting it...

Botched stops doesn't explain Lewi's performance at Australia, Monaco, Germany etc...

At least when gets the best car Vettel gets the job done unlike others...

[raymondu999]

Myurr - yep, I was talking of the races post-Spa.

[Cylinder]

Okay, I am going to stop you here because you are are not getting it.

Now it doesn't take a genius to work out that this isnt the "Senna like" seb of 2011, so what do you think happened.....do you think it's possible that once his mega 2011 car advatange was gone....so was his dominance. Because at this point in the season, co-incidently when he car was not fastest, he looks nowhere near as dominant as he does now............co-incidently, when his car is the fastest.

In other words, It's pretty clear the CAR is a major factor in seb's dominance.

I explained it to you Vettel was in front of Webber at the end of 7th race. At the next race due his DNF, instead of increasing his lead he fell behind Webber who finished the race in 4th. And yet the stupid argument about him being behind of Webberis repeated. What is special about 9th race anyway...

I think it is obvious who is not getting it...

Botched stops doesn't explain Lewi's performance at Australia, Monaco, Germany etc...

At least when gets the best car Vettel gets the job done unlike others...

One more time, lets try basic english

Vettel with second fastest car in beginning of the season.

9 Races = 3 podiums, behind teammate in WDC.

Not the dominant force he looked like in 2011 when he had pretty much 0 competition due to a massive car advantage.

By this time not only was his teammate beating him, but Alonso who had the 3rd/4th best car, scored 5 podiums. Aka Vettel being outperformed by teammate and driver in inferior car.

Nowhere near dominant when he didn't have the fastest car like he does now. Therefore those who attribute his recent wins to some kind of extra special driving ability, whilst conveniently forgetting Red Bull are now locking out the front row again because the car is so fast.........are fickle and dont understand the difference between driver and car.

It's like looking at 1996 and saying Damon Hill was the best driver in F1 because he amassed the most points and won alot of races........ or saying Villeneuve was a better driver than Schumacher in 1997

Simples.

[AlpineF1]

Okay, I am going to stop you here because you are are not getting it.

CIRCUMSTANCES play a part in deciding who is better than who, not just numbers. You pulled up some table of numbers as some kind of proof of Vettel driving better than Hamilton, when those numbers do not take into account CIRCUMSTANCES.

I dont even know why I am defending Hamilton, but his title race has been decided by botched pit stop after botched pit stop and car failures/bad luck. Very simple. What you provided in the form of a table of numbers doesnt take that into account.

Here is what I am telling you about Vettel.

1st 9 races of the season when he didnt have the rocketship........3 podiums. (Alonso scored 5 in a slower car)
Behind his team mate in the WDC.

Now it doesn't take a genius to work out that this isnt the "Senna like" seb of 2011, so what do you think happened.....do you think it's possible that once his mega 2011 car advatange was gone....so was his dominance. Because at this point in the season, co-incidently when he car was not fastest, he looks nowhere near as dominant as he does now............co-incidently, when his car is the fastest.

In other words, It's pretty clear the CAR is a major factor in seb's dominance. [/quote]
I'm sick of people like you, people in 2011 said that he couldnt race or overtake in the pack well, his performance in Spa proved that wrong, Monza 2011 overtake- not really a fluke, Its a ridiculous statement considering you have never even driven the car, a fast car helps but according to BBC Mclaren have the fastest car, also as proved by Mclaren race strategy and pitstops play a part.. and that is one of Red Bulls strong points Mclaren have mucked up alot in that area...

[CHT]

Okay, I am going to stop you here because you are are not getting it.

CIRCUMSTANCES play a part in deciding who is better than who, not just numbers. You pulled up some table of numbers as some kind of proof of Vettel driving better than Hamilton, when those numbers do not take into account CIRCUMSTANCES.

I dont even know why I am defending Hamilton, but his title race has been decided by botched pit stop after botched pit stop and car failures/bad luck. Very simple. What you provided in the form of a table of numbers doesnt take that into account.

Here is what I am telling you about Vettel.

1st 9 races of the season when he didnt have the rocketship........3 podiums. (Alonso scored 5 in a slower car)
Behind his team mate in the WDC.

Now it doesn't take a genius to work out that this isnt the "Senna like" seb of 2011, so what do you think happened.....do you think it's possible that once his mega 2011 car advatange was gone....so was his dominance. Because at this point in the season, co-incidently when he car was not fastest, he looks nowhere near as dominant as he does now............co-incidently, when his car is the fastest.

In other words, It's pretty clear the CAR is a major factor in seb's dominance.

I'm sick of people like you, people in 2011 said that he couldnt race or overtake in the pack well, his performance in Spa proved that wrong, Monza 2011 overtake- not really a fluke, Its a ridiculous statement considering you have never even driven the car, a fast car helps but according to BBC Mclaren have the fastest car, also as proved by Mclaren race strategy and pitstops play a part.. and that is one of Red Bulls strong points Mclaren have mucked up alot in that area...[/quote]

I think you are discounting the fact that Mclaren still hold the record for pit stop and Hamilton is a outgoing driver

[Cylinder]

I'm sick of people like you, people in 2011 said that he couldnt race or overtake in the pack well, his performance in Spa proved that wrong, Monza 2011 overtake- not really a fluke, Its a ridiculous statement considering you have never even driven the car, a fast car helps but according to BBC Mclaren have the fastest car, also as proved by Mclaren race strategy and pitstops play a part.. and that is one of Red Bulls strong points Mclaren have mucked up alot in that area...

Without turning this into a fanboy fest. It's really simple, I dont think you understand the difference between driver and car.

Infact you saying above Mclaren is the fastest car even now when Red Bull are locking out the front row and getting a 1-2 proves that........unless you think Mark Webber is a faster driver than Alonso and Hamilton.....which actually wouldnt suprise me tbh.