2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[zibby43]

Big news and good noises coming out of the Mercedes camp:
https://the-race.com/formula-1/mercedes ... ter-shift/

Says Merc are making big gains in the WT in the last 10 days.

This is fascinating.

What in the hell were they doing over the winter, then? Clearly not evaluating any other paths.

Sounds like they had tunnel vision over the W13 concept to the exclusion of all else. I'd guess there are a lot of bruised ego's amongst those in charge of Mercedes technical team. Might have been a case of the engineers knowing it was never going to work but being ignored by the management.

Yep. I took their word at face value when they had previously said that they thoroughly delved into other concepts’ potential. PR speak.

[zibby43]

Poor from Bono - he should have told HAM to keep pushing in the event ALO has a 10s penalty.

HAM finished 10.4s away from ALO. 0.4s cost him P4.

They were expecting 5 secs.

That's even worse considering Ocon (I believe) received 10 seconds at the last GP for not having served his 5-sec penalty properly.

Didn’t Bono state that ALO had a potential penalty?

[ringo]

I think the team were expecting 5s.

As for W13 and W14, its possible the engineers were just going with that their data was telling them.
Also for the CFD models, if certain boundary conditions or assumptions are not factored, then potential gains are not apparent. It's likely certain phenomena were ignored or considered negligible and now the team has learned to consider them and are now seeing why their performance was not what it seems.
All in all, I am glad they see where things can be improved. Toto said the W14 concept has a dead end. It doesn't mean it cannot work, becuase we have seen w14 and w13 run better than ferrari in some races, but the ceiling of performance on the concepts are lower than whatever it is they have now found.

[mkay]

Question is how quickly they can get this concept on track. I am confused as to whether the vaunted sidepod upgrade for Baku/Imola is a continuation of the current concept or the new concept they've been developing over the past several weeks/months.

It wouldn't make sense to keep developing a concept that has a dead end, unless the developments can carry over to the new concept. They should use the 20 remaining races as an 8-month long testing session.

[ringo]

Great job by George to be finishing ahead of both Ferraris and especially keeping his team mate behind that was on faster tyres!

I think Russel is more talented than Max. Have always maintained that. I am not a big fan like Harty and Mendis are. But having seen how Russel raced max last year in spain. And some other hilights of his.. He is very good.

Not so long ago you said Latifi was better than George and that George hasn't done anything to earn a place at Mercedes.

This is exactly why you never wanted George alongside Lewis.

By the way, that's not true. Since you are so good a digging through the past, I am sure you found posts where I claim Russel is more talented than the other young drivers, and you ignore those to select the saucy bits to regurgitate here. lol.
Anyhow let's continue to watch the season unfold.
Hamilton has been trained by a girl and has been eating grass for the past decade. Maybe it's time he gets a macho trainer and eat some animal protein and get some aggression. I did notice that even after coming into Russel's DRS he just backed off. Possibly too proud and not bothered to fight Russel over a 4th place.
In the past he was more aggressive.

[ringo]

Question is how quickly they can get this concept on track. I am confused as to whether the vaunted sidepod upgrade for Baku/Imola is a continuation of the current concept or the new concept they've been developing over the past several weeks/months.

It wouldn't make sense to keep developing a concept that has a dead end, unless the developments can carry over to the new concept. They should use the 20 remaining races as an 8-month long testing session.

Toto was asked how quickly and he cheekily went around the question.

[zibby43]

Question is how quickly they can get this concept on track. I am confused as to whether the vaunted sidepod upgrade for Baku/Imola is a continuation of the current concept or the new concept they've been developing over the past several weeks/months.

It wouldn't make sense to keep developing a concept that has a dead end, unless the developments can carry over to the new concept. They should use the 20 remaining races as an 8-month long testing session.

The forthcoming upgrades are a continuation of something that was cooked up months ago. They’ll continue to bring those forward and not waste the gains while they venture down the new path.

When we’ll see the true new path is a mystery at this point, I think.

[harty71]

Great job by George to be finishing ahead of both Ferraris and especially keeping his team mate behind that was on faster tyres!

I think Russel is more talented than Max. Have always maintained that. I am not a big fan like Harty and Mendis are. But having seen how Russel raced max last year in spain. And some other hilights of his.. He is very good.

Not so long ago you said Latifi was better than George and that George hasn't done anything to earn a place at Mercedes.

This is exactly why you never wanted George alongside Lewis.

By the way, that's not true. Since you are so good a digging through the past, I am sure you found posts where I claim Russel is more talented than the other young drivers, and you ignore those to select the saucy bits to regurgitate here. lol.
Anyhow let's continue to watch the season unfold.
Hamilton has been trained by a girl and has been eating grass for the past decade. Maybe it's time he gets a macho trainer and eat some animal protein and get some aggression. I did notice that even after coming into Russel's DRS he just backed off. Possibly too proud and not bothered to fight Russel over a 4th place.
In the past he was more aggressive.

And there we have it, I knew this excuse would eventually come, Russell is only winning because Hamilton is a vegan.

[mzso]

The only thing I worry about when it comes to Lewis is Mercedes never being able to give him a car that can win again. That is a distinct possibility now and he may end up never competing at the front again. We shall see.

What I'm sad about is that Russel got to the team as they fell back. I would have liked to see him defeat Hamilton for the championship.

If the mighty verstappen could not stop Lewis in the final 4 races of 2021 how on earth would George Russell have done that? Especially considering we saw he was outperformed by Hamilton in 2022? Are we now saying George is better than Max?

What do you mean could not stop? Could not stop him cheating? Like cutting a corner and gaining several seconds? Or ramming him in the rear? Luck, and dirty moves and steward bias was with Hamilton in 2021. He got away with a black flag worthy crime and caused an extra PU change for Verstappen. That's easily a dirty 50 point plus for him.

Also Hamilton didn't outperform Russel last year in any way. It was the other way around for the most part.

[mzso]

I think it’s a little too early to be making comparisons for this season, but over the era of the car Russell does appear to be getting hold of the horns better on the W13/14 so far.

Nonsense. Hamilton was easily quicker during the races from the summer onwards last year, and Chandhok stated this last season on numerous occasions on Sky. Lewis also won the Q h2h last year. Lewis was ahead and quicker than Russell in Abu Dhabi too, before the car broke down. Beat Russell two weeks ago in Bahrain too.

Complete and utter nonsense that Russell has got a better feeling with these types of cars.

Agreed.

Except that Hamilton spelled it out that he doesn't feel the car...

[Redragon]

Question is how quickly they can get this concept on track. I am confused as to whether the vaunted sidepod upgrade for Baku/Imola is a continuation of the current concept or the new concept they've been developing over the past several weeks/months.

It wouldn't make sense to keep developing a concept that has a dead end, unless the developments can carry over to the new concept. They should use the 20 remaining races as an 8-month long testing session.

The forthcoming upgrades are a continuation of something that was cooked up months ago. They’ll continue to bring those forward and not waste the gains while they venture down the new path.

When we’ll see the true new path is a mystery at this point, I think.

The problem I see with this approach is, if this abandoned concept / new upgrades are put in the car and they gain enough to be at front, they will be completely lost as they will be working on a new concept already but the old one is giving you enough gain. So, if they are fully commited on a new concept wouldn't be better to stop all old concept development and work on new concept even if it means few months delay. Otherwise I feel they will get confused and will not commit in one way or other, staying on a place with not clear picture

[mzso]

Obviously the thing Mercedes probably can't change during this season is the forward cockpit position they have compared to other cars.

You mean the imaginary thing that was discredited long ago?

[mzso]

The PlayStation Generation is an improvement, like PS3 vs PS5.

Hamilton is PS1 generation. So only Alonso is not Playstation generation, so you're not saying much...

[zibby43]

Question is how quickly they can get this concept on track. I am confused as to whether the vaunted sidepod upgrade for Baku/Imola is a continuation of the current concept or the new concept they've been developing over the past several weeks/months.

It wouldn't make sense to keep developing a concept that has a dead end, unless the developments can carry over to the new concept. They should use the 20 remaining races as an 8-month long testing session.

The forthcoming upgrades are a continuation of something that was cooked up months ago. They’ll continue to bring those forward and not waste the gains while they venture down the new path.

When we’ll see the true new path is a mystery at this point, I think.

The problem I see with this approach is, if this abandoned concept / new upgrades are put in the car and they gain enough to be at front, they will be completely lost as they will be working on a new concept already but the old one is giving you enough gain. So, if they are fully commited on a new concept wouldn't be better to stop all old concept development and work on new concept even if it means few months delay. Otherwise I feel they will get confused and will not commit in one way or other, staying on a place with not clear picture

I completely understand your well-reasoned logic, but they still may be able to glean some useful learnings by developing other areas of the car that may continue to be relevant going forward. There’s already the sunk cost in developing and manufacturing the parts on the way, such is the lead time for these sorts of things.

[mzso]

Backstreet boys were also cery successful.
I dont change my opinion. All of the young drivers are basically manufactured. It's only natural as the sport develops and grows.

And all the old ones as well. Jim Clark, Jacky Stewart, and Lauda were not manufactured. But that time was a while ago...

Hamilton 20 pts
Russell 18 pts

And Sainz has more than thrice the points of Leclerc... And, actually it's Russel 21...
Which drives home the point that it's utterly meaningless after two races.