Female F1 drivers

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
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WhiteBlue
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Re: Female F1 drivers

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agree about equal oportunity. disagree about biological handicap. :wink:
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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checkered
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Re: Female F1 drivers

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There are a lot

of interesting arguments in WhiteBlue's messages. Some of them ring true to me, some I find fast becoming irrelevant - perhaps. Evolution (and why not "memolution" as well) is a funny thing, one need only to look at such cases as the HAR1 gene (apparently elemental in arranging the cerebral cortex; there are two differences in the sequence between a chicken and a chimp, eighteen between a chimp and a human). Equally mind boggling is the capability to adapt one's skill set (however biased) to different challenges all the way down to quite significant physiological changes happening within a single individual.

Racing as an activity can be argued to be in a bit of a unique position, not a major pressure point on our "sociocultural gravity map" as such, but a sort of a culmination of many effects and aspirations that are rapidly changing in this World of ours nonetheless. Am I offended then? Absolutely not, but having considered this issue at length before (mainly having tried to be encouraging about women in racing), I'm growing increasingly apprehensive about making anything at all of gender issues in this context. This is because, in light of my current understanding, not thinking about this in any specific way could actually prove to have the greatest positive net effect at this point of time. Get a driver into the overalls, put a helmet on and go racing - that's my immediate reaction. Thus my appreciation of a driver is becoming less and less dependent on quantifiable expectations projected on unique individuals (based on a precedent that might not apply) or my appreciation of the other sex as a part of the male-female dipole.

That being said, Danica Patrick made my day; whatever I think of the issues above there, it doesn't diminish this victory's significance in the history of motorsports. I recognise that much. As such it is testament both to what is good and to what can be improved in racing. It is undoubtedly a milestone, not for Danica alone, but for us all on which we can reflect time and again. Also of note, Simona De Silvestro won a Champ Car Atlantic race at Long Beach, you're well advised to remember the name for future reference.
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." - Yogi Berra

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Female F1 drivers

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checkered wrote:There are a lot

of interesting arguments in WhiteBlue's messages. Some of them ring true to me, some I find fast becoming irrelevant - perhaps. ...
a statement that made me read the post three times. I couldn't find the points of argument for the irrelevant bits. the approval is obviously about Danica Patricks achievements. so may I ask for a rephrase of the irrelevant thoughts for non native speakers. perhaps I can learn.

I'm surprised about Simona De Silvestro's win. She didn't get anywhere near the podium in her first Atlantic year after a good show in BMWs. So what changed suddenly for her in her second year. Did she have a mental problem with that much power that she eventually resolved in the off season? Atlantic and GP2 are good steps but will she make it to IRL or F1? Legge did Atlantic as well and now she is in DTM (racing Ralf :wink: ).
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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checkered
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Re: Female F1 drivers

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WhiteBlue wrote:a statement that made me read the post three times. I couldn't find the points of argument for the irrelevant bits.
Highly worrying, on

my part - not yours. I will need to re-examine my logic and expression. Sorry for the inconvenience, it wasn't my intention to cause it - nor any other ill effect - at all. Nor was it to provide a "learning experience", but merely to contribute one more point to further define our collective perspective. Hopefully there is one. I was inspired by your decision to introduce "wider issues". Should the mere extent of the rest of the message appear daunting, feel free to disregard it. There's nothing in prioritising that I will nor want to hold against you.

First off, I can't comment on Guy Kawasaki's "male killer gene" theory. I'm not familiar with it. My personal experience is that both genders are capable of causing severe harm. There seem to be cultural differences in what kind of harm either gender is expected to inflict. There seem to be differences in what motivation the genders are supposed in having to resort to harming others. Furthermore, there seem to be cultural differences in how any caused harm by either gender is viewed. The same seems to be true about other capabilities.

Some of this is the result of conforming to the environment, or "nature". Some of it is the result of shaping the environment, or "culture". We are at an interesting point in history. My view is that "culture" hasn't been nearly as "conscious" as we have liked to think we were. Only by having grown the human population over sustainable limits (by means currently available) we're forced to admit to underestimating what "nature" is. At the same time, there's a new appreciation of how forcefully "culture" has come to direct evolution in biological terms. The HAR1 gene I mentioned is probably one very tangible example of this. The interaction between "nature" and "culture" doesn't happen between human beings and our environment. It happens within us and within our environment.*

Genders are by no means immune to the interaction of "nature" and "culture". Some societies already expect virtually the same of men and women. This will reflect quickly on both "nature" and "culture" alike, racing included. If there is a value judgement that racing should be equally accessible to women and that this accessibility should be reflected in numbers, IMHO we can only hinder the process by "affirmative action" (even on thought level) in a thoroughly egalitarian, gender neutral society. This is where I expect change to be almost automatic and "positive amplification" will soon follow.

On the other hand, in an inegalitarian society a woman can outclass men in racing by adapting qualities and skills formed by that combination of "nature" and "culture". The motivation, means and effect can be very different to the egalitarian counterpart, but it is still as possible (e.g., see Iranian racing driver Laleh Seddigh) and regarded as another real way of advancement. This is why I juxtaposed the effects of evolution and the adaptability of one's own skill set to a purpose. And herein I feel that your notions about averages being less than indicative of an individual's potential are very true. Call it "contrastive amplification" if you will.

My standpoints are varied and incomplete. These issues are so enormous that no-one in her/his right mind should claim to have considered every possible angle. Or "being in the right". I have been influenced by so many sources in this that I scarcely remember most of them by name. As always, there's a certain inevitable randomness in how one gathers information.

I wished to highlight the incredible variety of ramifications our very thinking has on (perhaps improbable) things like women in racing. And a conversation on a messageboard is pure thinking on very many levels indeed. I wished to consider cause and effect beyond genders, in order to gauge how gender might not affect one's general proclivity to racing.

I hope this shed at least some light on what I was after in inadvertently inconveniencing you. If not, my sincerest wish is that you do the service of being blunt about it and not leave me hanging. In any case, please do not take the trouble of reading this again, it is not worth it nor purposeful. I wish I could've responded with far fewer words but this, unfortunately, was the best I could do at the moment. Obviously I take further risks at irrelevancy. Of course if all else fails, I always have the option of checking myself in an establishment that has walls with considerably better padding. Alas they, too, might have a broadband connection.

Last, but not least, I very much liked that you dared to equate Danica with Juan Manuel, Ayrton and Michael. Some will undoubtedly regard this as excessive to say the least. On my part, I view it as an excellent example of introducing "wider issues".

-----------

* This, I dare to carefully suggest, also makes the case of how irresponsible, conceited and stupid racist theories and their "scientific" offshoots are. The destruction of one is the diminishment of us all. Our interaction, our very common being is on such a fundamental level that either we all improve, or ultimately none improve. It is our challenge to rise up to that standard.
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." - Yogi Berra

Carlos
Carlos
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Re: Female F1 drivers

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In reference to checkered's posts - some backround on the HAR1 gene:
Could this be the F1 Driver Talent Gene :D
http://www.livescience.com/health/060816_har1_gene.html Article
http://notes.kateva.org/2006/08/har1-uplift-gene.html Blog Notes
http://www.bio.davidson.edu/COURSES/gen ... ment1.html Article Overview

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Female F1 drivers

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I do not take the "killer gene" mantra very serious. Does it really matter why male and female behavior and capabilities are different. in the first place one should take into account that they are indeed different and make use of the information. I could not find a reference in the links about different genetic makeup of male and female humans. obviously those differences exist but have they been researched?
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Belatti
Belatti
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Re: Female F1 drivers

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The only way to prove the "gene" theory is to have equal amount of women and men racing.

Making some random assumptions:
Lets assume we have got a generation of 10.000 drivers.
For every 10.000 persons that start racing in Karting, maybe only 20 reach to F1.
For every 10.000 men that start racing in Karting, maybe there are only 10 women.
That gives us a probability of 0.0002% of having a women in F1 for this generation, supposing that there are no genetic differences.

So, I think that the case here is that there are not many girls whose daddy buy her a Karting and support her to have a driver career.

Even if there are some genetic differences, those differences could be smaller than the needed to succes in motor racing.

Note: please don´t pay attention to the numbers, they are not accurate, just a vague assumption.
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Female F1 drivers

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Belatti, I agree with your cascade theory, in fact I have mentioned it myself. what I don't buy is the role of rich daddy and his approval or disapproval for the kid's racing carreer.

take Mick and Gina Maria Schumacher for example. Michael did not want his kids to race and their mom is probably not so far away from that wish. Mick is two years younger and has overcome his parents wish for him not to race. Gina Maria aparently wasn't inclined to follow her dad into motor racing. that may be mainly guided by behavioral factors and not by genetics but how do we know that behavior is aquired and not inherited?

I would just not get into that can of worms and simply accept that differences exist between genders that make identical sporting feats in racing much greater for females.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Belatti
Belatti
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Re: Female F1 drivers

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WhiteBlue wrote: Gina Maria aparently wasn't inclined to follow her dad into motor racing. that may be mainly guided by behavioral factors and not by genetics but how do we know that behavior is aquired and not inherited?
.
Easy! We would have to see the presents below the Christmas tree!
I bet Mick had bunch of little Ferrari cars and Gina Maria a bunch of... Barbies!

All the girls I know who race here in my country provides from a "not male chauvinist" family of drivers / people devoided to motor racing. Also is common that the girl has 2 or 3 brothers who like the same things

As far as I can see, is the way the kid is raised. Moms and dads often don´t see with good eyes his girl likes boxing with kids, or playing with cars, they often think "give her a doll, otherwise she is gonna be a lesbian" or some other retarded thought like that.

Similar thoughts are applied to a boy that wanna do Ballet or something like that.

Me for example: thanks to my uncle I went to my first TC race when was 4. All my childhood I was falling off a bicycle, while racing with my little neightbour. I have got more scars than Rambo now! I used my lego bricks to... build racetracks in the floor and make my lil´ cars run in it. When an AT286 with 1Mb of RAM appeared in my house, I began playing Accolade´s GP all day long, my father had to hide the keyboard to make me do homework.

Unfortunately, we have always been in the lower part of middle class, so buying a Kart for the kid was impossible. I had to play football and really never get used to it :wink:

I don´t know if daddy has to be rich, but definitively you need a certain amount of money and above all, a lot of family support.
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Female F1 drivers

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http://www.feedmef1.com/html/modules.ph ... e&sid=9889
Former grand prix driver Hans-Joachim Stuck is convinced that Danica Patrick, the first female competitor to win a race in premier American open wheeler racing, would be a good addition to the formula one grid.

26-year-old Patrick drove into the history books last Sunday by beating Helio Castroneves to the chequered flag in the IndyCar race at Motegi, Japan.

She drives for Andretti-Green Racing, which is co-owned by former McLaren racer Michael Andretti, whose son Marco has tested for the F1 team Honda.

"It is quite clear that, with Danica, formula one could conquer the United States.

"She is good enough for it," Stuck is quoted as saying by the German magazine Sport Bild.

Stuck, however, believes Patrick would need a season in GP2, as well as some F1 testing, before making the leap.

Sport Bild claims that Flavio Briatore, the Renault boss, has contemplated making contact with Patrick in view of a formula one collaboration of some sort.
such a stunt would be typical for Flab
Piquet perk up your ears!
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

meves
meves
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Re: Female F1 drivers

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I'm sure there has been a lot written on this so I'm not going to go through it all again. Yes, their are genetic differences between men and women that make men more aggressive and more prone to risk taking and women less so. There are also many other subtle differences that make men more disposed to doing some things and women others. In fact today I read this article which describes mens agressiveness when driving http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Ne ... eId=125904. But the people you are talking about are at the extreme ends of the scale for their gender, being honest anyone who has been successful in a racing series is incredibly talented and has all the traits needed to make it in that sport. I think that everyone should have an equal opportunity in the sport and I hope that all the people who go into the sport are accepted for their talent and not for any other reason, be it money, contacts, gender or race (yes, that is very idealistic on the money and contacts front!).

To me the sport is all about seeing the best out on the track giving racing as closely as possible (we always hope) with the other competitors. I'm really pleased that Danica won and hope that she can make it a regular thing and I hope this encourages more women into the sport, although to be honest if it was all men and or all women, as long as they are the best then I really don't care!

Belatti
Belatti
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Re: Female F1 drivers

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WhiteBlue wrote:Belatti, I agree with your cascade theory, in fact I have mentioned it myself. what I don't buy is the role of rich daddy and his approval or disapproval for the kid's racing carreer.
Maybe you could be interested in this old topic Ciro created...

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4399&hilit=rich
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Female F1 drivers

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Belatti wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:Belatti, I agree with your cascade theory, in fact I have mentioned it myself. what I don't buy is the role of rich daddy and his approval or disapproval for the kid's racing carreer.
Maybe you could be interested in this old topic Ciro created...

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4399&hilit=rich
well, I read this topic and it didn't say anything about gender specific prefernces for rich parents sponsoring their kids in motor sport. that was the issue I was referring to.

obviously kid from rich homes can race and poor kids can't mostly. the issue here was more about what causes many more boys to race than girls and what is the reason to have almost no females in top racing formula. it can't be the money. thats the same for both genders or I have got something wrong. compare my remark about the Schumacher family. they have money like the budget of a mid sized city of 0.3 million inhabitants but only the boy gets to race karts. I reckon the rate of male and female racers form middle class, rich and super rich would not be different. there are other reasons for the different level of participation.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Belatti
Belatti
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Re: Female F1 drivers

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I was not talking about gender here. [-X

You don´t buy the role of rich daddy and his approval or disapproval for the kid's racing carreer but you say kid from rich homes can race and poor kids can't.

So please pick one side.
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Female F1 drivers

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perhaps it was stated unclear. I agree with the money issue in general but not as a factor influencing gender preferences and capabilities.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)