Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Harsha wrote:I don't know this is the right place to ask this but
To the Technical experts here
which banned techniques you will choose to make the car faster. Generally we hear DDD or EBD or FRIC most of the time but what else you would like to have to make F1 cars better with V6 technology engines
I would go with double deck diffuser. Why?
1. We can make a very large one because the 2014 V6 engine is shorter. We could run the double deck much further up.
2. It does not require extra fuel like the blown diffuser, which was using as much as 11% more fuel in 2011. (Renault).
So Exhaust Blown diffuser only makes sense in races that have low fuel demand and in qualifying.
Ok, here's the cornering speed comparison between 2014's F1 and LMP1s cars, at Interlagos:
T3 and T11 are flat out zones, so no comparison
Senna's S(T1)- Rosberg's(pole lap) has 113kmh as it's minimum speed while Audi's(when speedmeter was shown on some random race lap) min was 107kmh.
Rosberg uses quite more kerb, though, and picking a Gutierrez Q2 lap where he does about the same line as the Audi, the Sauber min speed is 109kmh.
From the F1 race laps I have seen, they are all slower(~100kmh) than the Audi
T4 - Rosberg's(pole) min speed is 157kmh, Gutierrez's Q2 is 150kmh and Audi's 144kmh
Under race conditions, the fastest I saw from the F1s is also around 144kmh
T6-7(the fast double righ-hander) - Rosberg's(pole) speedmeter is not so good here because it get's "freezed" for a brief moment at 208kmh, while it was still reducing the speed. From a Lewis lap, the minimum speed of the Mercedes is just under 200kmh. Sauber and Force India were doing around 188kmh during their Q2 laps and the Audi race lap had the same min speed of 188kmh
During the race, the best I remember was from Mercedes(with around half tank and fresh tyres IIRC) and was pretty much the same as the Audi race lap. Every other F1 car was quite slower, though, on race trim.
T8 - Rosberg's pole with min speed of 90kmh and Audi's race lap 91kmh. Here, Audi, on race trim, matches even F1's pole lap speed, nevermind F1 under race trim
T9 - Rosberg's pole with 107kmh, Gutierrez's Q2 with 101kmh and Audi's 102kmh
T10 - Speedmeter was removed from the Audi onboard, so I had to look for other moments in the race where there was telemetry through T10. There was with Toyota and it had min speed of 83kmh which is the same of Rosberg's pole lap or any other "flying lap" done by a F1 car. Sometimes, F1s cornered a bit under 80kmh when on race trim, though.
T2 - Picked from a Porsche race lap, min speed of 110kmh which is on par with F1 midfielders during their quali laps while the pole had Rosberg with 122kmh. On race trim, I didn't spot any F1 car on par with the Porsche
Again, the LMP1's telemetries are all from the race and their tyres were much more durable(Audi double stinted them and a single stint is around 50 min or 36 laps) while the Softs in F1 were used for only 5 to 9 laps and the Mediums were mostly used for 20 laps.
So, to sums up, Audi used it's tyres for a full F1 race lengh(71 laps) and Toyota/Porsche for half of it. The best F1 car(W06), under race conditions, is at best equal to the LMP1s in some corners and loses in others.
LMP1s can match even F1's pole lap cornering speeds at the slowest corners(despite the much more durable tyres) and is on par with F1's midfielders(on their's qualifying mode)everywhere, including the high speed corners
If your definition of "pinnacle of motoracing" relies on laptimes, then F1 still is it. If it involves the need to be the cars with the highest cornering speeds, then, in best case scenario, it's position is seriously threatened.
Lotterer already said that the Super Formula cars are the fastest in the world during cornering, and going by the F1 and LMP1 comparison, I believe him.
Paul Hembrey:
“So we expect quite a big jump again in performance next season. If you're talking a second or even up to two seconds a lap speed improvement that dramatically changes the way the tyres are used. So we have to be wary of that and follow that, but overall this year we feel we got the balance about right considering such a big change and the forefront technology this year was quite rightly the new hybrid powertrains which is a fascinating technology.” http://www.crash.net/f1/news/212798/1/p ... -2015.html
If the two seconds per lap improvement rumor is true (relative to the end of last year), then we'd be looking at a 1:08.0 around Interlagos, a 1:34.0 around Austin, and a 1:38.4 around Abu Dhabi. Those lap times would absolutely smash the ones from 2009-2013.
Regarding downforce, the WO6 will probably be right up there with the Red Bull cars from the previous era, if not better.
Kingshark wrote:Paul Hembrey:
“So we expect quite a big jump again in performance next season. If you're talking a second or even up to two seconds a lap speed improvement that dramatically changes the way the tyres are used. So we have to be wary of that and follow that, but overall this year we feel we got the balance about right considering such a big change and the forefront technology this year was quite rightly the new hybrid powertrains which is a fascinating technology.” http://www.crash.net/f1/news/212798/1/p ... -2015.html
If the two seconds per lap improvement rumor is true (relative to the end of last year), then we'd be looking at a 1:08.0 around Interlagos, a 1:34.0 around Austin, and a 1:38.4 around Abu Dhabi. Those lap times would absolutely smash the ones from 2009-2013.
Regarding downforce, the WO6 will probably be right up there with the Red Bull cars from the previous era, if not better.
I think you are right but that depends on Tire choices which hembery made another point.
"the choices we thought conservative for this year might look too aggressive for next year"
So if it is true then we might not see the faster laps due to less grippy tires say they brought Med- Hard for Brazil, Austin they will only match the 2014 times , and Soft - Medium for Yas as well , IMO times depend majorly on tire compounds and conditions than pace of car
Kingshark wrote:Paul Hembrey:
“So we expect quite a big jump again in performance next season. If you're talking a second or even up to two seconds a lap speed improvement that dramatically changes the way the tyres are used. So we have to be wary of that and follow that, but overall this year we feel we got the balance about right considering such a big change and the forefront technology this year was quite rightly the new hybrid powertrains which is a fascinating technology.” http://www.crash.net/f1/news/212798/1/p ... -2015.html
If the two seconds per lap improvement rumor is true (relative to the end of last year), then we'd be looking at a 1:08.0 around Interlagos, a 1:34.0 around Austin, and a 1:38.4 around Abu Dhabi. Those lap times would absolutely smash the ones from 2009-2013.
Regarding downforce, the WO6 will probably be right up there with the Red Bull cars from the previous era, if not better.
Eerrr.. no.. Let me direct your attention to this interview. His name is Mark Arnall. He is the trainer for Kimi and he also trained Mika. He mentions that the g-forces are so much less these days that the drivers' necks are not as stressed as they once were, when cars had higher cornering speeds.
Kingshark wrote:
Regarding downforce, the WO6 will probably be right up there with the Red Bull cars from the previous era, if not better.
lol
I just watched an onboard comparison around Austin between Rosberg's pole lap in 2014 and Vettel's in 2013. The WO5 looked just about as planted as the RB9 through the first sector (which is entirely high speed corners). Next years Mercedes is going to be on another level, at least one second will be gained through downforce alone.
I don't think that the WO5 will quite match the downforce monster that was the Ferrari F2008, but it should be able to at least match the Red Bull cars from the past few years.
Kingshark wrote:
Regarding downforce, the WO6 will probably be right up there with the Red Bull cars from the previous era, if not better.
lol
I just watched an onboard comparison around Austin between Rosberg's pole lap in 2014 and Vettel's in 2013. The WO5 looked just about as planted as the RB9 through the first sector (which is entirely high speed corners). Next years Mercedes is going to be on another level, at least one second will be gained through downforce alone.
I don't think that the WO5 will quite match the downforce monster that was the Ferrari F2008, but it should be able to at least match the Red Bull cars from the past few years.
Maybe you are confusing balance with aero grip? There is no way that the 2014 cars have as much grip as the 2011-2013 cars. The 2014 cars needed to cut back on the lift to drag ratio as well as the narrower front wing, single diffuser and the lack of a lower beam wing.
Kingshark wrote:
Regarding downforce, the WO6 will probably be right up there with the Red Bull cars from the previous era, if not better.
lol
I just watched an onboard comparison around Austin between Rosberg's pole lap in 2014 and Vettel's in 2013. The WO5 looked just about as planted as the RB9 through the first sector (which is entirely high speed corners). Next years Mercedes is going to be on another level, at least one second will be gained through downforce alone.
I don't think that the WO5 will quite match the downforce monster that was the Ferrari F2008, but it should be able to at least match the Red Bull cars from the past few years.
We've been over this a million times. I'll laugh when cars remain to be 5s slower than RB6 in barcelona, despite having 30kmh advantage on the straight.
Kingshark wrote:
Regarding downforce, the WO6 will probably be right up there with the Red Bull cars from the previous era, if not better.
lol
I just watched an onboard comparison around Austin between Rosberg's pole lap in 2014 and Vettel's in 2013. The WO5 looked just about as planted as the RB9 through the first sector (which is entirely high speed corners). Next years Mercedes is going to be on another level, at least one second will be gained through downforce alone.
I don't think that the WO5 will quite match the downforce monster that was the Ferrari F2008, but it should be able to at least match the Red Bull cars from the past few years.
'
Edit:
AFAIR 2013 cars had more downforce than the best 2008 cars accroding to Pat Symonds...
Last edited by Blackout on 05 Jan 2015, 22:57, edited 1 time in total.
AMuS: With your people and your budget, where would this Marussia have been in 2003, 1993 and 1983?
Symonds: We would've won everything. Even 2003. Of course, in 2003, there were much more powerful engines than today and different tyres. We'd have to account for that. But i know the differences in the downforce levels. Our Marussia has much more downforce than the 2003 Renault, even though the regulations have changed to the disadvantage of aerodynamics. Concerning downforce, the top cars today are far ahead of the 2008 cars. Back then, aero regulations were much more open. In 2009 alone, regulation changes cost us 50 points of downforce. In 1983, you would've been said to have magic powers if you had built a Marussia.
It's funny: some people are determined to believe that today's F1 cars are slow, underpowered, low downforce donkeys. The reality, of course, is somewhat different.
There seems to be a view that because the wings are a bit smaller and differently placed etc. that they must be rubbish compared to yester-year. The reality is that the designers have the tools today that allow them to extract more from the little that the rules give them. The wind tunnels and CFD systems, along with simulation tools, would be a wet dream for an F1 engineer of even 10 years ago, sci-fi for one from 20 years ago.
By the end of the first season following the biggest rule changes in a generation the cars are nearly as fast as those that enjoyed several years of relative rule stability. In a couple of years the FIA is going to be looking to slow these cars down because they will be getting too fast for the circuits.
"but they're rubbish because they're quiet!", "everything was better back then!" Pah!
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.
Just_a_fan wrote:It's funny: some people are determined to believe that today's F1 cars are slow, underpowered, low downforce donkeys. The reality, of course, is somewhat different.
There seems to be a view that because the wings are a bit smaller and differently placed etc. that they must be rubbish compared to yester-year. The reality is that the designers have the tools today that allow them to extract more from the little that the rules give them. The wind tunnels and CFD systems, along with simulation tools, would be a wet dream for an F1 engineer of even 10 years ago, sci-fi for one from 20 years ago.
By the end of the first season following the biggest rule changes in a generation the cars are nearly as fast as those that enjoyed several years of relative rule stability. In a couple of years the FIA is going to be looking to slow these cars down because they will be getting too fast for the circuits.
"but they're rubbish because they're quiet!", "everything was better back then!" Pah!
Except when you see speed analysis and realize the 2014 year are 20 km slower on average in high speed corners...
whatever it is (downforce, tyres, weight, combination of those latter) ...they are slower.
