2014 pace vs. 2004 pace, where, how are they better?

[Harsha]

I don't know this is the right place to ask this but
To the Technical experts here
which banned techniques you will choose to make the car faster. Generally we hear DDD or EBD or FRIC most of the time but what else you would like to have to make F1 cars better with V6 technology engines

[Hobbs04]

@hollus, Schumacher's minimum speed in Degner 1 was ~250kmh while Rosberg's was ~210kmh. At first Spoon, it was 220kmh for the F2004 versus 190kmh of the W06. Adding the damp track factor, it's just a humiliation of the 2004 cars over the 2014 ones in the high speed corners.

We also already saw that in Silverstone's Copse, where ~240kmh was the speed of the 2014 cars on their qualifying simulations in FPs while 2006/2010 cars could go at over 280kmh

I agree. Muuuch slower in the high speed corners. But interestingly, you are citing an ~17% deficit in speed, while the 2014 cars carry an 14% penalty in weight. Cars designers have clawed back a lot of what the regulations took back in power and in aero.
I am starting to think that the only think making 2014 cars look really slow is the weight limit. Which of course they are increasing for next year in their infinite wisdom now that nobody is complaining about skinny drivers anymore and that heavy FRIC systems are off the cars.

What about Tires? F1blog had a recent podcast with an interview with Kimi where he talks about the tires in the tire war era. Tires imo have ruuined what makes f1 so pleasing to the eyes. The sheer speed they hold in blanchimont, 130r , turn 8 is taken down from the tire war era. Obviously we have clawed back x amount but change of direction is more thrilling to the eyes then 361 kph down monza...

[Moose]

Every time this comes up I giggle inside. We have one third of the forum screaming "we need all the grip you could ever want, the cars need to look like they're on rails", a second third screaming "we need less grip, we need more oversteer moments, and more twitches, and more fighting the car for control", and another third that's just happy to sit back and watch F1.

Stop moaning and get on with the watching.

[Ogami musashi]

@hollus, Schumacher's minimum speed in Degner 1 was ~250kmh while Rosberg's was ~210kmh. At first Spoon, it was 220kmh for the F2004 versus 190kmh of the W06. Adding the damp track factor, it's just a humiliation of the 2004 cars over the 2014 ones in the high speed corners.

We also already saw that in Silverstone's Copse, where ~240kmh was the speed of the 2014 cars on their qualifying simulations in FPs while 2006/2010 cars could go at over 280kmh

I agree. Muuuch slower in the high speed corners. But interestingly, you are citing an ~17% deficit in speed, while the 2014 cars carry an 14% penalty in weight. Cars designers have clawed back a lot of what the regulations took back in power and in aero.
I am starting to think that the only think making 2014 cars look really slow is the weight limit. Which of course they are increasing for next year in their infinite wisdom now that nobody is complaining about skinny drivers anymore and that heavy FRIC systems are off the cars.

I have trouble understanding why you focus on the weight so much. The lap times are significantly slower in 2014 on track were conditions are the same. Recca graphs show that high speed cornering is very significantly lower than in the previous years, especially the 2004-2006 cars (back in 2006, at the british GP the cornering speeds in copse of the then new V8 was highlighted in the media), on top speed they sometimes match them or are a bit higher but as recca pointed it is in DRS zones.

Of course the weight is a significant impact, that was highlighted as one of the major reason F1 cars were faster than champ cars in 2007 despite having, supposedly, less downforce.

It is also natural that given the continuity of rules changes 2014 are closer to 2013 and so forth except when you have abrupt rules changes. But integrating variations over the years, it is evident the 2014 are much slower that 2004-2006 cars.
The data available suggest loss of downforce (lower high speed cornering), power (barely equal or lower top speeds despite having much less drag) and weight (the very same speeds attained despite having more torque and less drag) are the main culprits which is not suprising at all.
Tyres would play a significant role as well.

So, to me, it is a combination of the aforementioned factors.

I shall stress that some people here compare different situations together which is not a valid approach. Interlagos top speeds and lap times can not be compared to 2014 as the track was resurfaced.

Also i shall remind everybody that in 2004 the qualifying times were for a car with one stint of fuel remaining in the car (refueling was not allowed between qualifying and start of the race).

Now of course, progresses have been maid in 10 years, so in some areas the 2014 may be more advanced. But weight, downforce and power are the holy grail of racing and it is hard compensating for a loss of performance in the three departments

[Manoah2u]

Every time this comes up I giggle inside. We have one third of the forum screaming "we need all the grip you could ever want, the cars need to look like they're on rails", a second third screaming "we need less grip, we need more oversteer moments, and more twitches, and more fighting the car for control", and another third that's just happy to sit back and watch F1.

Stop moaning and get on with the watching.

Thank you.

Simply put:

This was awesome


This was awesome


This was awesome


this was awesome


this was awesome


this was awesome


this was awesome


For every year and every era there are the pros and cons. The only year in recent times that wasn't awesome was 1994 for obvious reasons.

[Artur Craft]

I agree. Muuuch slower in the high speed corners. But interestingly, you are citing an ~17% deficit in speed, while the 2014 cars carry an 14% penalty in weight. Cars designers have clawed back a lot of what the regulations took back in power and in aero.

Not entirely correct because, in 2004, they had race fuel onboard for the qualifying laps.

Schumacher pitted on the 13th lap of the race.

In 2013, Fuel consumption in Suzuka was said to be 2.73 kg per lap, according to this:
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/10/j ... -play-out/

In 2011, it's said to be 2.9kg according to:
http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/Suzu ... ,1727.html

I couldn't find one for 2004, when they had V10s(which I guess have bigger comsuption?)

Let's use 3kg/lap, which gives an extra 39kg to the 605kg 2004 car. So, W06 was around 8% heavier than F2004.

We can make some rough guess at the impact of such weight difference in cornering speed.

Let's suppose W06 have similar downforce levels to a 2011 LMP1 car, which was around 1200kg @ 240kmh:
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/aerodata ... s102i.html

At ~210kmh, downforce is ~ 920kg and total load on tyres are ~1618kg. Now with the same downforce and a 644kg car weight, the increased acceleration will allow 2,3% more speed, but, as speed will be a bit higher, downforce will also increase slightly, which will again increase speed capability.... tyre load sensitivity will impose a limit slightly higher than this 2,3%, though

So, with a rough guess, the W06 cornering speed, at Degner 1, would change from ~210kmh to max of ~220kmh(4,7%)*, if it had 644kg instead of 698kg
*rough guess based on typical values of tyre load sensitivity

Imho, it's still a far cry(~30kmh or 12% less) from the "roughly weight corrected" cornering speed of the W06 to that of the other previous cars

PS: I know the calculation is far from accurate as real downforce value will change the real impact, as well as the actual tyre load sensitivity. But, it's just to give an idea and indicate how the +50kg weight factor is not the major one in the high speed cornering differences.

PS2: I don't know if it's appropriate to this thread, but would you like me to post the Interlagos comparisons between F1 2014 and LMP1? It's really telling how F1 is no longer the "pinnacle" in cornering speeds...

Obviously we have clawed back x amount but change of direction is more thrilling to the eyes then 361 kph down monza...

I entirely agree with you. If a car is doing 360 or 340kmh at Monza's main straight, it's almost indifferent, at least to me. If it's doing 200 or 170kmh at Parabolica, though, is a big difference to me.

@Moose, grip is different to handling. If you look into 2004 onboards, on average, they gave much more work at the wheel than the 2014 ones. For instance, have you ever seen a 2014 being this handful?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvlSq77oVlE

Please don't share this link elsewhere cause I don't want FOM removing that account

[mrluke]

@Moose, grip is different to handling. If you look into 2004 onboards, on average, they gave much more work at the wheel than the 2014 ones. For instance, have you ever seen a 2014 being this handful?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvlSq77oVlE

Please don't share this link elsewhere cause I don't want FOM removing that account

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_OlK9ppz_Q

watch the first 60 seconds

[Moose]

@Moose, grip is different to handling. If you look into 2004 onboards, on average, they gave much more work at the wheel than the 2014 ones. For instance, have you ever seen a 2014 being this handful?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvlSq77oVlE

Please don't share this link elsewhere cause I don't want FOM removing that account

Yes - in fact, every 2014 car is more of a handful than that. If you attempted to drive a 2014 car at that speed through the corners it would fly off the track at every single one. The fact that the current drivers are not sliding them around a lot is neither here nor there.

[Hobbs04]

Does anyone have footage from instanbul pre 2009 specifically turn 8? I think camera angles and width have greatly reduced speed perceptions as of late.

[langwadt]

snip
@Moose, grip is different to handling. If you look into 2004 onboards, on average, they gave much more work at the wheel than the 2014 ones. For instance, have you ever seen a 2014 being this handful?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvlSq77oVlE

maybe the current cars are just better cars, it may look impressive going sideways sawing at the steering wheel but it
isn't fast

though Lauda may have a point, http://youtu.be/mK_cTgOzlo0

[flmkane]

@Moose, grip is different to handling. If you look into 2004 onboards, on average, they gave much more work at the wheel than the 2014 ones. For instance, have you ever seen a 2014 being this handful?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvlSq77oVlE

Please don't share this link elsewhere cause I don't want FOM removing that account

He's got a loose TC setting. He's just stomping on the throttle, and sorting out any resultant slides using steering wheel actions.

Current cars are not capable of being controlled like that because they dont have traction control... gotta be more careful

[Reca]

It's also unbelievable what Schumacher does in Degner 1. He's the fastest despite the damp track(~250kmh at the apex at around 2300m). In the first Spoon(3900m), he's also the fastest.

You know what, now I have more than some doubts that’s right as really seems too high to be believable, especially for a damp track.
It’s possible, even likely, that I got something wrong with gears attributions there.
Identifying downshifts is the delicate part of the work as, differently from upshifts which are always quite neat and isolated, not rarely signal is quite noisy in deceleration (especially on old videos and with invasive electronic intervention); both Degner and Spoon have a double apex with reducing radius, so there is a series of downshifts with a little pause in between, it’s possible I misplaced one of them, ending up overestimating speed for that short time interval.

Typical case of “never do things in a hurry”... I’ll re-check it when I get home tonight.

As for the rest of things you asked, I’ll try to do something in the weekend, should have some spare time.

[Artur Craft]

Reca, take your time. Don't worry about doing this as fast as possible to us. We(well, I can only speak for myself but pretty much everybody in this forum seems like a sensible and reasonable person) are more than thankful for the effort and work that you do with this stuff.

No matter how long it takes, it's always quick enough for me and I appreciate all the work you do in this and the kindness to share it with us!

[kooleracer]

The FIA President confirmed that the next meeting of the Strategy Group would take place on 18 December, and would focus reducing costs, improving the show, making cars quicker and more difficult to drive, and reviewing the technical and sporting regulations, with the aim of simplifying the rules where possible

I hope that they really can deliver on that promise. The only thing i'm missing nowadays about F1 is the lack of speed and difficulty. We almost never see drivers make mistakes during the race because the race pace has dropped considerably. Mostly because of the ban refueling. I hope in the future the FIA will lift the ban on refueling. I think the goals should be that race pace and quali pace should only diver 2 seconds when the cars are fueled up at the start of the race.

The FIA should just look at the 2004-2005 regulations and copy most of it. Also het rid off the tarmac runoff area's and just put back the gravel traps.

[Juzh]

Scrap 100 kg/h. Problem solved.