2018 Azerbaijan GP - Verstappen, Ricciardo clash

[J.A.W.]

...

1stly, Max was entitled to keep to his line, or make one move - off-line, in one direction, once..
( & do that safely, & def' not to instigate a collision, or cause a crash, due to running Dan off the track).

Max, however, moved right ( his one allowable 'move'), then back left (his second, & 'improper' move*)
& effectively 'brake-checked' Dan, (which was both a double move, & a clearly unsafe one) which left Dan with zero option, 'cept to crash - into the wall, or into him, as actually happened..

2ndly, Senna ( in the vid with Schumacher) was quite properly holding his line, & it was up to M.S.,
to overtake him, by going faster yet..
In the event, it was M.S. who took the action - to steer an intercept vector, & thus he collided with Senna,
an outcome just as predictable, ( & avoidable) as Max pulled on his team-mate..

( 'No offence' G-J, but if you truly cannot grasp these basics.. perhaps its best..
that you book yourself in to do some psychometric/cognitive function tests..
& I put this frankly, sans prejudice, def' not as an insult, or snide condescension, slight or whatever, ok)..

*Try doing such a double move - in any 'one move' boardgame scenario, & see what happens..

[strad]

So thanks for proving my point that Senna was never dirty when defending!

You have got to be kidding!
Ask Prost, go all the way back to the F 1600 series and Rick Morris at Oulton Park ""Senna came up on the inside of me and literally banged me out of the way doing about 90MPH" another instance "I was already moving out of his way and he puts me onto the grass" Many many more can be pointed out.
Ask Brundle who literally had a war with Senna in the lower classes and wound up being pushed off course numerous times.
He many times gave many drivers the choice of having a major accident or backing off. It's where so many of today drivers learned to do that.
He practically invented dirty driving.
Senna was certainly a great driver but lets remove those rose colored glasses. Try reading some books that are not written by those who could look at him and his career in perspective.

[djos]

So thanks for proving my point that Senna was never dirty when defending!

You have got to be kidding!
Ask Prost, go all the way back to the F 1600 series and Rick Morris at Oulton Park ""Senna came up on the inside of me and literally banged me out of the way doing about 90MPH" another instance "I was already moving out of his way and he puts me onto the grass" Many many more can be pointed out.
Ask Brundle who literally had a war with Senna in the lower classes and wound up being pushed off course numerous times.
He many times gave many drivers the choice of having a major accident or backing off. It's where so many of today drivers learned to do that.
He practically invented dirty driving.
Senna was certainly a great driver but lets remove those rose colored glasses. Try reading some books that are not written by those who could look at him and his career in perspective.

You missed the key word in my statement "defending". We all know he was utterly ruthless when overtaking and that's not what we were debating.

[strad]

Ok what about Prost vs Senna - 1988 Portuguese Grand Prix
He pushed Prost to the wall. Much like Schumacher years later vs Ralf.
Take off those glasses

[George-Jung]

Ok what about Prost vs Senna - 1988 Portuguese Grand Prix
He pushed Prost to the wall. Much like Schumacher years later vs Ralf.
Take off those glasses

Indeed.
Schumacher did it to Barrichello BTW.

[djos]

Ok what about Prost vs Senna - 1988 Portuguese Grand Prix
He pushed Prost to the wall. Much like Schumacher years later vs Ralf.
Take off those glasses

Indeed.
Schumacher did it to Barrichello BTW.

https://youtu.be/lf_AwV66ss0

Senna still left a car space for Prost, there's a difference between trying to intimidate your opponent and giving them no option but to crash.

[strad]

Give it up djos
It's not like Senna was a puritan. He hated to be passed and he would do anything to avoid it thru out his career.
And I thought Michael did it to his own brother as well.

[Fulcrum]

Ok what about Prost vs Senna - 1988 Portuguese Grand Prix
He pushed Prost to the wall. Much like Schumacher years later vs Ralf.
Take off those glasses

Indeed.
Schumacher did it to Barrichello BTW.

https://youtu.be/lf_AwV66ss0

Prost has half the width of the pit straight to occupy and Senna clearly stops moving once Prost is along side. Is that really the same thing as this?



I think not.

[strad]

Different view ...darn near the end around 3:26 They say he gave a car width but it looks more like half a car and at 200mph. as they say a formula 3 move
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw4gBcRZ-M0

[djos]

Different view ...darn near the end around 3:26 They say he gave a car width but it looks more like half a car and at 200mph. as they say a formula 3 move
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw4gBcRZ-M0

He still left him just enough room within the track limits, unlike the Shuey incident referred to earlier.

[J.A.W.]

Ok what about Prost vs Senna - 1988 Portuguese Grand Prix
He pushed Prost to the wall. Much like Schumacher years later vs Ralf.
Take off those glasses

Indeed.
Schumacher did it to Barrichello BTW.

https://youtu.be/lf_AwV66ss0

"Indeed." Not...

It does however - indeed appear, G-J - that you really are totally 'channelling' Lord Melchett..
& hence perhaps, the likely reason for the downvotes.. pure exasperation..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIJ92NbW82M

[George-Jung]

Ok what about Prost vs Senna - 1988 Portuguese Grand Prix
He pushed Prost to the wall. Much like Schumacher years later vs Ralf.
Take off those glasses

Indeed.
Schumacher did it to Barrichello BTW.

https://youtu.be/lf_AwV66ss0

Senna still left a car space for Prost, there's a difference between trying to intimidate your opponent and giving them no option but to crash.

Ok, so Barrichello crashed?

[sosic2121]

I agree with most of what you say here actually, finally a more normal tone to discuss. Thank you, really. This for me is what f1technical should be.

On most circuits it indeed is hard to stay in DRS (will quickly cost you your tires due to low grip in the turbulance zone) but I think Baku is the exception to this rule. Not to say Ricci wasn’t driving good because he was.

I always believed in his talent and to me none of that is hype. Sure there always is a lot of controversy, but I think (next to Max indeed Triggering it himselve still sometimes) a lot is also stirred up by people with other interests. If it would have been Max in the Kimi Ocon crash, or Max in the Gasly Magnussen move, or Max in the grosjean Ericsson crash it would also have been a 20 page discussion just as well.

A lot of people here believe(me included) and that Max(not only him, but he the most obvious example) was allowed to basically cheat. So now, when ever he is involved in an incident, you get this crusade against him.

I think that if he was given a penalty in Hungary 2016 for move on Kimi, he would have ended Baku 2018 in P4 or P5, not in the wall.
If RB had serious conversation with him after Hungary 2017, he would have respected his team mate in Baku, and also had his respect! Again P4, P5.

If he had Lewis's respect in China, maybe he wouldn't end in the grass and maybe he would have won the race.

You only have to watch spa 2016(?) to understand what happens when you loose respect. At the end of Kammel straight he basically lost position, then dive bomb kimi, both left the track, and then Charlie told Kimi to give the place back!? But that's not the point. Point was what Vettel did to Max couple of laps later (same place, exactly the situation) because he had no respect for him.

Best example for Max is Lewis. He was such a quick and talented driver, but he was reckless. He was in a championship winning car for many years, yet he was a single WDC and even that was lucky. I had NO respect for him.
Today he's not spectacular any more, but he won 4 WDC. This year he seems to be slower than ever, yet he's a WDC leader in 2nd quickest car, and we all know he will fight for it all season long.
And Max is P8.
Sorry for so lengthy reply

[epo]

Marko admits Verstappen was faster then RIC in Baku, so he should have said to RIC to back off.

http://www.motorprofis.at/motorsport/re ... muth-marko

[iotar__]

Marko admits Verstappen was faster then RIC in Baku, so he should have said to RIC to back off.

http://www.motorprofis.at/motorsport/re ... muth-marko

That's clearly April the 1st. As was Marko's : "Mercedes are toying with the opposition" Anyway back to albeit silly but reality. Ross "I can't count to two" Brawn strikes again:

"While this was a very severe example, it did highlight once more the need of finding a way to develop the rules to make the cars more raceable in these conditions,”

Ross B. has no shame (nothing new). Verstappen's low quality driving, illegal blocking and crashing two cars is blamed on difficult to overtake cars? His win at Barcelona of course wasn't. That was pure genius and a little help from team orders, LH and Ferrari drivers.

Spin and overtaking under yellows in Aus, crash in q and collision in Bah, off track and crash in China and Baku and +3 similar moves in the past. No, it's not a driver it's the cars and he was only "higlighting problems" of them being "not raceable enough" .

Full lying damage limitation, reprimand 50-50 and sweeping under the carpet from RB friendly media. Sod this circus.