2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[Venturiation]

Eric Blandin leaving was what hit Mercedes but mike should have learned enough from him

What if the zeropods was baldin design?

[pursue_one's]

[CHT]

Do people not realize that Daimler AG (Mercedes parent company) have a large holding in Aston Martin Lagonda PLC. Tobias Moers, the ex head of AMG Mercedes is now CEO of Aston!

Merc have had their run in F1 and all the publicity that goes with it, the "brand" the bigwigs are pushing now is Aston Martin as can be seen by the safety car changes and factory/people investment.

If you think it`s all Lawrence Stroll behind this, think again, the full weight of the parent company is behind Aston and not the team that carries its name but is two thirds owned by Ineos and Wolff.

They`re now pretty much just another team making up the numbers, in my opinion Aston Martin will take their place in the top three and when the next concorde agreement comes round, just before the new engine regs (2026) I wouldn`t be surprised if the team gets sold or Daimler pull out completely.

The top engineers/people aren`t there anymore and haven`t been for a few years, Think Cowell(engine), Costa(design+engineering), Vowles(Srategy), Braun(Technical),Lowe (good with suspension), Lauda(all round good egg). James Allison steping back a bit and being replaced with Elliot can`t have helped either, I really don`t get a good F1 vibe off the bloke, he seems nice enough though, maybe that`s half the problem!

You got a good point. This is what I've been saying since last year basically. You're as good as the weakest member of the team. Merc is being run by interns and rushed seniors. I explained back in few posts. I've been working in different corporations and I saw this happening in each of the corporations I worked. It's almost impossible to hold tight the talent. You gotta to always bring and be in hunting mode of fresher talent, otherwise they'll hunt your most valuable experienced personnel and you'll be running the departments with interns and inexperienced personnel being in charge of very complicated situations with a huge degree of pressure. And it's almost like a downward spiral, the more you try the more the staff will run away.

Daimler's relationship with AML is arms length at best and the possible 20% stake is also conditional (yet to materialise).

AM car brand will only make sense for Merc or Daimler if they can make it profitable eventually. Between Merc and AM, Merc will be a much bigger fish for Daimler, so I do not see any chance of AM replacing Merc in the top 3 anytime soon.

https://www.ft.com/content/1abfa75b-1d3 ... fef1d06844

From this website, you can see who are the shareholders of Aston Martin. Chinese Geely stake in the company is even bigger than Benz, which at the moment is less than 2% after share dilution. You may be right that someone else may e bankrolling the AM project, but its certainly not Merc because Merc is a technology partner for AM, not a financial backer.

https://www.marketscreener.com/quote/st ... 8/company/

[Cs98]

Whats easy to forget is that all concepts are significantly faster than RB last year, so the reference has moved and that has not become apparent until now. Also gaps in qualy were relatively small. It seems like RB seems to have a much better understanding of how to work the tires.

Accounting for weight that is definitely not true. The RB18 at the weight limit would’ve smoked the W14 the way it performed here. Even the base spec from early 2022, which was 15+ kg overweight.

According to the timing boards it is true. Sure you can slice and dice it and give additional reasons, but im just looking at the stopwatch. I agree the time difference is coming from something.

You said all concepts are significantly faster than the RB18. Last I checked being overweight isn’t part of anyone’s concept. It’s just a simple fact that if you account for weight then your statement doesn’t hold true, which carries some pretty dire implications for Merc.

[napoleon1981]

Accounting for weight that is definitely not true. The RB18 at the weight limit would’ve smoked the W14 the way it performed here. Even the base spec from early 2022, which was 15+ kg overweight.

According to the timing boards it is true. Sure you can slice and dice it and give additional reasons, but im just looking at the stopwatch. I agree the time difference is coming from something.

You said all concepts are significantly faster than the RB18. Last I checked being overweight isn’t part of anyone’s concept. It’s just a simple fact that if you account for weight then your statement doesn’t hold true, which carries some pretty dire implications for Merc.

Weight is for sure related to a concept. THe other important thing you are leaving out is that the floor area was cut down and the ride height was raised. Even with those additional limitations the Merc was faster than last years RB18. Can't just pick one thing out. The W14 probably looked good in the windtunnel until the RB19 and AM turned it up in Q3.

[Cs98]

According to the timing boards it is true. Sure you can slice and dice it and give additional reasons, but im just looking at the stopwatch. I agree the time difference is coming from something.

You said all concepts are significantly faster than the RB18. Last I checked being overweight isn’t part of anyone’s concept. It’s just a simple fact that if you account for weight then your statement doesn’t hold true, which carries some pretty dire implications for Merc.

Weight is for sure related to a concept.

It sure isn’t when that same concept is now at the weight limit and every other team bar one was also overweight. It was a consequence of the regulations, not any one concept within those regulations.

Ride height hasn’t changed, the floor edge has been raised. We also have new tyres which according to Pirelli are significantly faster due to lower pressures.

[napoleon1981]

You said all concepts are significantly faster than the RB18. Last I checked being overweight isn’t part of anyone’s concept. It’s just a simple fact that if you account for weight then your statement doesn’t hold true, which carries some pretty dire implications for Merc.

Weight is for sure related to a concept.

It sure isn’t when that same concept is now at the weight limit and every other team bar one was also overweight. It was a consequence of the regulations, not any one concept within those regulations. The Alfa purposely went with a short wheel base for example to save weight.

It is, because they did not have the resources to do it. Only now, without majorly changing the car they are able to do it.

Anyway long story, but the Merc was faster in Q3 than last years RB. Slice or dice it the way you want. The car gained alot of pace and engineers were fooled. Likely by their own rule they advocated for. Raising the floor edge (as you like) 15mm and losing alot of reference.

[mendis]

Weight is for sure related to a concept.

It sure isn’t when that same concept is now at the weight limit and every other team bar one was also overweight. It was a consequence of the regulations, not any one concept within those regulations.

It is, because they did not have the resources to do it. Only now, without majorly changing the car they are able to do it.

Anyway long story, but the Merc was faster in Q3 than last years RB. Slice or dice it the way you want. The car gained alot of pace and engineers were fooled. Likely by their own rule they advocated for. Raising the floor edge (as you like) 15mm and losing alot of reference.

Concept and the construction composits are two different things. Lack of capacity or development work or R&D for newer and lighter composits, to reduce the weight, due to cost cap, isn't the problem of concept. It's the external factors that are limiting the concept. As soon as they got the budget from 2022, they could reduce the weight and concept didn't create hurdles for reducing it.

[zakhassan44]

According to the timing boards it is true. Sure you can slice and dice it and give additional reasons, but im just looking at the stopwatch. I agree the time difference is coming from something.

You said all concepts are significantly faster than the RB18. Last I checked being overweight isn’t part of anyone’s concept. It’s just a simple fact that if you account for weight then your statement doesn’t hold true, which carries some pretty dire implications for Merc.

Weight is for sure related to a concept. THe other important thing you are leaving out is that the floor area was cut down and the ride height was raised. Even with those additional limitations the Merc was faster than last years RB18. Can't just pick one thing out. The W14 probably looked good in the windtunnel until the RB19 and AM turned it up in Q3.

isn't that even more concerning if the W14 looks good to mercedes and it's still 1s off?

[Venturiation]

You said all concepts are significantly faster than the RB18. Last I checked being overweight isn’t part of anyone’s concept. It’s just a simple fact that if you account for weight then your statement doesn’t hold true, which carries some pretty dire implications for Merc.

Weight is for sure related to a concept. THe other important thing you are leaving out is that the floor area was cut down and the ride height was raised. Even with those additional limitations the Merc was faster than last years RB18. Can't just pick one thing out. The W14 probably looked good in the windtunnel until the RB19 and AM turned it up in Q3.

isn't that even more concerning if the W14 looks good to mercedes and it's still 1s off?

no they knew where they would be

ferrari is having the same problem as W13 ; the simulator says the car is 1 second faster but on track it isn't

[zakhassan44]

Weight is for sure related to a concept. THe other important thing you are leaving out is that the floor area was cut down and the ride height was raised. Even with those additional limitations the Merc was faster than last years RB18. Can't just pick one thing out. The W14 probably looked good in the windtunnel until the RB19 and AM turned it up in Q3.

isn't that even more concerning if the W14 looks good to mercedes and it's still 1s off?

no they knew where they would be

ferrari is having the same problem as W13 ; the simulator says the car is 1 second faster but on track it isn't

doesn't that just mean that there's a cap on both ferrari's and merc's concepts relative to red bull's?

[Venturiation]

isn't that even more concerning if the W14 looks good to mercedes and it's still 1s off?

no they knew where they would be

ferrari is having the same problem as W13 ; the simulator says the car is 1 second faster but on track it isn't

doesn't that just mean that there's a cap on both ferrari's and merc's concepts relative to red bull's?

it's either that or redbull is using something that the others haven't learned yet wich explains aston martin jump after dan fallows brought his RB18 and 19 knowledge

[F1Krof]

no they knew where they would be

ferrari is having the same problem as W13 ; the simulator says the car is 1 second faster but on track it isn't

doesn't that just mean that there's a cap on both ferrari's and merc's concepts relative to red bull's?

it's either that or redbull is using something that the others haven't learned yet wich explains aston martin jump after dan fallows brought his RB18 and 19 knowledge

Yep, probably this is it. I think they know a trick or two about ground effect which the others don't at the moment. Jury's out let's hope for a RB or AM stoppage on track and see what they're hiding under the skirt literally. I think there's where the secret lies.

[Venturiation]

doesn't that just mean that there's a cap on both ferrari's and merc's concepts relative to red bull's?

it's either that or redbull is using something that the others haven't learned yet wich explains aston martin jump after dan fallows brought his RB18 and 19 knowledge

Yep, probably this is it. I think they know a trick or two about ground effect which the others don't at the moment. Jury's out let's hope for a RB or AM stoppage on track and see what they're hiding under the skirt literally. I think there's where the secret lies.

if teams are desperate they can just have contact with one of the cars so it's stuck on track and has to be lifted

[Andi76]

I think there are several things that are very worrying about Mercedes and maybe the reason why they were overtaken within a short time not only by Ferrari and Red Bull but also by Aston Martin. The fact that they didn't realize last year that the concept is wrong and has too many disadvantages is one thing. If all teams turn away from this concept or similar concepts relatively quickly, as Williams and McLaren did, that should have been a sign. When the teams then all came closer to Red Bull and Ferrari, and not a single Mercedes and other teams explained that they had also tested such a concept, but rejected it, and one always despite all the problems that coincided with the statements described the aerodynamicists of other teams - at the latest then one should have rethought. That this did not happen is something that is very worrying. Another thing is that Mercedes, according to its own statement, tested the concepts of the competitors and could not achieve better results. Whereas Aston Martin, with the same tools, i.e. wind tunnel etc., same suspension and engine, was able to find quite a bit more performance with these concepts. Since it obviously cannot be due to these things, there are basically only two things left to explain why one has not recognized for too long that one has developed a completely wrong concept and has held on to it for too long despite clear indications of this and why one is not able to achieve comparatively more performance from proven better concepts:

They still haven't realized what "ground effect cars are all about", which is not to be taken literally, because what is meant by that are those subtleties that, in addition to more stable aerodynamics, allow other concepts to extract the crucial 5 to 7 tenths that make the difference between the cars in the first two rows of the grid and the midfield. The only other explanation would simply be that Mercedes, after losing people like Aldo Costa or Blandin, simply no longer has the necessary competence. In the end, the competition also poaches these people for a certain reason (Costa left to win LeMans but there were enough others). And if you didn't notice her departure, then both the team that got her and the team that relied on her for years would have done something wrong. After 8 years of dominance, a bit of arrogance about one's own abilities has certainly played a role or favored something. In my eyes, that's something that's really worrying about Mercedes and that you also have to take into account.

Eric Baldin leaving was what hit Mercedes but mike should have learned enough from him

What if the zeropods was baldin design?

Who is Baldin?