Mclaren Mercedes 2014

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
j2004p
j2004p
7
Joined: 31 Mar 2010, 18:22

Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

Post

Thunders wrote:Hugo Boss is a German Brand and i strongly believe they moved to Mercedes because McLaren runs Honda Engines next Year and not the german Merc.

But i'm also absolutely sure Unilever will more than compensate that Hole.
Hugo Boss have been with Mclaren whilst they have had the following engine manufacturers

Porsche (TAG)
Honda
Ford
Peugeot
Mercedes

So I dont think it's the switch back to Honda that's the decisive factor here.

As the article says Boss are linking in with Mercedes on a number of non-F1 projects which would put their sponsorship of Mclaren at odds with that relationship.
Last edited by j2004p on 07 Jul 2014, 15:14, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Thunder
Moderator
Joined: 06 Feb 2013, 09:50
Location: Germany

Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

Post

Fair Point.

Well it's sad to see them go but as long as there is replacement everything is ok.
turbof1 wrote: YOU SHALL NOT......STALLLLL!!!
#aerogollum

the EDGE
the EDGE
67
Joined: 13 Feb 2012, 18:31
Location: Bedfordshire ENGLAND

Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

Post

What this could also come down to is the marketing value of Lewis & Nico compared to that of Jenson & Kevin

George-Jung
George-Jung
18
Joined: 29 Apr 2014, 15:39

Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

Post

the EDGE wrote:What this could also come down to is the marketing value of Lewis & Nico compared to that of Jenson & Kevin
And of course that Mercedes is a German team and Hugo Boss is a German company?

SidSidney
SidSidney
18
Joined: 30 Jan 2014, 01:34
Location: Racetracks around the world

Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

Post

Interesting to read the P&L for McLaren Racing Ltd., latest filing is from FY2012, to see just how badly they need sponsors to stay in business, and why 2014 is a financial nightmare:-

Image

In the notes they say that the increased costs of about GBP 22MM in 2012 are due to driver costs, more races and remote wind tunnel testing.

What's interesting is the cash position. GBP 38MM is 80 days cashflow at those burn rates. That means they need somebody to pay more money in constantly to meet those monthly costs i.e., big sponsors.

The balance sheet also has some interesting detail, esp. the debtors, heritage assets & revaluation reserve:-

Image

The debtors number only contains 41MM receivables from trade debtors i.e. sponsors (shown in another table). So you can imagine what happens when they get to the start of 2014 and there's no major sponsor to foot the 14MM a month bill... every month that cash balance reduces by a number probably a bit lower than 14MM, as they have other sponsors and prize money income, but probably something like 8-10MM a month. The board has to take some action, hence adieu Martin Whitmarsh and welcome back Ron Dennis.

Heritage assets at GBP 76MM, which the current assessed value of about 150 racing / road cars they have kept:-

Image

That's probably a pretty fair valuation of those cars if they have engines etc, you can pick up Benetton's, Williams and Ferrari's for $500K-$600K with a Hart engine installed.

The revaluation reserve is in principle real money, but it's usually tied to the current valuation of major capital assets that underpin the running of the business e.g. the buildings they own or something similar. So it's not money you can easily unlock without disturbing how the business operates day-to-day.

I would be willing to guess that the 2014 numbers look a lot worse.
This signature is encrypted to avoid complaints, but it makes me laugh out loud:-
16S75 13E7K 41C53 7CT23 14O5O 67R32 76175 90B67 L4L42 41O63 72W56 98M10 52E87

User avatar
mikeerfol
68
Joined: 20 Apr 2013, 22:19
Location: Greece

Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

Post

Do you believe it was the right call to pick Magnussen over Button for the 2nd day of testing?

mclaren_mircea
mclaren_mircea
0
Joined: 10 Jan 2013, 13:16

Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

Post

mikeerfol wrote:Do you believe it was the right call to pick Magnussen over Button for the 2nd day of testing?
It would have been better for the development with Button in the car. I know that he isn't a great developer of a car, but his experience should count more than the feed back of a rookie, even if Kevin has a good feed back for the team. But I'm sure EB knows better than we do, or at leat I hope :D
Joking :)

User avatar
adrianjordan
24
Joined: 28 Feb 2010, 11:34
Location: West Yorkshire, England

Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

Post

SidSidney wrote:Interesting to read the P&L for McLaren Racing Ltd., latest filing is from FY2012, to see just how badly they need sponsors to stay in business, and why 2014 is a financial nightmare:-

http://i.imgur.com/fShOOir.png

In the notes they say that the increased costs of about GBP 22MM in 2012 are due to driver costs, more races and remote wind tunnel testing.

What's interesting is the cash position. GBP 38MM is 80 days cashflow at those burn rates. That means they need somebody to pay more money in constantly to meet those monthly costs i.e., big sponsors.

The balance sheet also has some interesting detail, esp. the debtors, heritage assets & revaluation reserve:-

http://i.imgur.com/dbhmzwb.png

The debtors number only contains 41MM receivables from trade debtors i.e. sponsors (shown in another table). So you can imagine what happens when they get to the start of 2014 and there's no major sponsor to foot the 14MM a month bill... every month that cash balance reduces by a number probably a bit lower than 14MM, as they have other sponsors and prize money income, but probably something like 8-10MM a month. The board has to take some action, hence adieu Martin Whitmarsh and welcome back Ron Dennis.

Heritage assets at GBP 76MM, which the current assessed value of about 150 racing / road cars they have kept:-

http://i.imgur.com/q7cqgMR.png

That's probably a pretty fair valuation of those cars if they have engines etc, you can pick up Benetton's, Williams and Ferrari's for $500K-$600K with a Hart engine installed.

The revaluation reserve is in principle real money, but it's usually tied to the current valuation of major capital assets that underpin the running of the business e.g. the buildings they own or something similar. So it's not money you can easily unlock without disturbing how the business operates day-to-day.

I would be willing to guess that the 2014 numbers look a lot worse.
How do the accounts look for the whole group?
Favourite driver: Lando Norris
Favourite team: McLaren

Turned down the chance to meet Vettel at Silverstone in 2007. He was a test driver at the time and I didn't think it was worth queuing!! 🤦🏻‍♂️

SidSidney
SidSidney
18
Joined: 30 Jan 2014, 01:34
Location: Racetracks around the world

Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

Post

adrianjordan wrote:How do the accounts look for the whole group?
A little better, but not dramatically so. The Group is actually a holding company for racing-related activities:-

Image

The sector info is broken out as follows:-

Image

Notice McLaren Automotive is not there? That's the McLaren road car division which is entirely separate and not included in these books.

In terms of assets, cash is not extremely massive either - again you wouldn't want to bump into the weeds on that with the burn rate at McLaren Racing:-

Image

The biggest asset is the property, which is probably the MTC in Woking, owned by the Group company directly, making a nice depreciation tax shield for group profits - nice bit of tax planning:-

Image

Interesting to see what Ron Dennis earns, assuming he is the highest paid director...

Image

Actually I have over-estimated the cash available - you will see that McLaren racing has only 240K (yes, K!) cash at the bank, but lots of financable receivables. The Group only has another 2.5M in the bank - peanuts. They need to be sure debtors (sponsor/Formula One Management) pay on time.
This signature is encrypted to avoid complaints, but it makes me laugh out loud:-
16S75 13E7K 41C53 7CT23 14O5O 67R32 76175 90B67 L4L42 41O63 72W56 98M10 52E87

Avocado
Avocado
23
Joined: 21 Jan 2013, 14:03

Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

Post

Hilarious posts by SidSidney. Would laugh again.

Also:

McLaren set for record budget
McLaren Group CEO Ron Dennis confirmed at the start of this season his organisation were digging deeper into their pockets than ever before in order to compete this year, with the figure rumoured to be around £200million (€250million/$335million).
"We are not in a position where we are struggling to get money, we are perfectly fine, and with Honda coming on board, even more so," said racing director Eric Boullier.

"For this year we've had our biggest ever budget and next year that is going to increase, so there are no worries."
Boullier also insists McLaren's financial well-being means they will continue to be patient with regard to a title sponsor.

George-Jung
George-Jung
18
Joined: 29 Apr 2014, 15:39

Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

Post

^^

Numbers don't lie..

SidSidney
SidSidney
18
Joined: 30 Jan 2014, 01:34
Location: Racetracks around the world

Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

Post

Avocado wrote:Hilarious posts by SidSidney. Would laugh again.
I am not sure I understand your comment but in any case I am not saying they are in bad shape, just that the lack of major sponsor is a drain and that at some point somebody has to inject cash into the group.

Hence the instructions to Morgan Stanley to find an equity investor in March this year:-

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/d8325610 ... z36uQYct00

F1’s McLaren revs up hunt for investors

McLaren boss Ron Dennis has instructed Morgan Stanley to search for new investors as he plots to revive the Formula One team’s ailing fortunes and expand its technology division.

Mr Dennis, 66, re-established control of the Surrey group last month, usurping team principal and chief executive Martin Whitmarsh. Mr Dennis is a 25 per cent shareholder in McLaren.

The team has held exploratory talks with Chinese investors. “The net is cast wide,” he said, when asked about the discussions. “It’s a question of the quality of the investor.”


Ron wouldn't want - or need - equity partners to inject capital if he had his usual sponsor cashflow. If he could retain his 25% he would, but he and the other shareholders will have to give up a chunk to get new money in the door, and he's going to be doing it at a time of weakness.

The fact they have set a theoretical budget is neither here nor there if they don't have the money.
This signature is encrypted to avoid complaints, but it makes me laugh out loud:-
16S75 13E7K 41C53 7CT23 14O5O 67R32 76175 90B67 L4L42 41O63 72W56 98M10 52E87

User avatar
adrianjordan
24
Joined: 28 Feb 2010, 11:34
Location: West Yorkshire, England

Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

Post

SidSidney wrote:
Avocado wrote:Hilarious posts by SidSidney. Would laugh again.
I am not sure I understand your comment but in any case I am not saying they are in bad shape, just that the lack of major sponsor is a drain and that at some point somebody has to inject cash into the group.

Hence the instructions to Morgan Stanley to find an equity investor in March this year:-

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/d8325610 ... z36uQYct00

F1’s McLaren revs up hunt for investors

McLaren boss Ron Dennis has instructed Morgan Stanley to search for new investors as he plots to revive the Formula One team’s ailing fortunes and expand its technology division.

Mr Dennis, 66, re-established control of the Surrey group last month, usurping team principal and chief executive Martin Whitmarsh. Mr Dennis is a 25 per cent shareholder in McLaren.

The team has held exploratory talks with Chinese investors. “The net is cast wide,” he said, when asked about the discussions. “It’s a question of the quality of the investor.”


Ron wouldn't want - or need - equity partners to inject capital if he had his usual sponsor cashflow. If he could retain his 25% he would, but he and the other shareholders will have to give up a chunk to get new money in the door, and he's going to be doing it at a time of weakness.

The fact they have set a theoretical budget is neither here nor there if they don't have the money.
I think the point is that they do have the money, it's coming out of the profits from the Automotive division.
Favourite driver: Lando Norris
Favourite team: McLaren

Turned down the chance to meet Vettel at Silverstone in 2007. He was a test driver at the time and I didn't think it was worth queuing!! 🤦🏻‍♂️

SidSidney
SidSidney
18
Joined: 30 Jan 2014, 01:34
Location: Racetracks around the world

Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

Post

adrianjordan wrote:
SidSidney wrote:
Avocado wrote:Hilarious posts by SidSidney. Would laugh again.
I am not sure I understand your comment but in any case I am not saying they are in bad shape, just that the lack of major sponsor is a drain and that at some point somebody has to inject cash into the group.

Hence the instructions to Morgan Stanley to find an equity investor in March this year:-

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/d8325610 ... z36uQYct00

F1’s McLaren revs up hunt for investors

McLaren boss Ron Dennis has instructed Morgan Stanley to search for new investors as he plots to revive the Formula One team’s ailing fortunes and expand its technology division.

Mr Dennis, 66, re-established control of the Surrey group last month, usurping team principal and chief executive Martin Whitmarsh. Mr Dennis is a 25 per cent shareholder in McLaren.

The team has held exploratory talks with Chinese investors. “The net is cast wide,” he said, when asked about the discussions. “It’s a question of the quality of the investor.”


Ron wouldn't want - or need - equity partners to inject capital if he had his usual sponsor cashflow. If he could retain his 25% he would, but he and the other shareholders will have to give up a chunk to get new money in the door, and he's going to be doing it at a time of weakness.

The fact they have set a theoretical budget is neither here nor there if they don't have the money.
I think the point is that they do have the money, it's coming out of the profits from the Automotive division.
That's not really possible, as Automotive is still in a 65M GBP hole itself. They only made their first profit last year, and that was only 4.5M GBP:-

"McLaren Automotive made both an operating and pre-tax profit for the first time in 2013, during only its third year of car production."

2013 Profit before tax: £4.5m (profit)
2012 Profit before tax: -£10.9m (loss)
2011 Profit before tax: -£59.1m (loss)


Please don't think I am negative on McLaren, it's just the practicalities of cash. If Vodafone has gone, that is 50M GBP a year gone with them (source:Reuters & Vodafone). Mercedes has gone, and sold their equity back to the team by 2011, which will mean they are probably running the Merc engines at some kind of cost, rather than as a 100% factory-subsidized team (I am not sure on that one, depends on the contract). What has Honda paid in? No idea, but I don't think it is 50M GBP cash into McLaren's bank account; if it was, I think we would see more Honda logos around the place... So it is a minimum 50M GBP hit for 2014, maybe a lot more.

So, if I look around the 2012 (and probably very similar 2013) balance sheets, where can they find 50M cash by July 2014? It's not there, not unless they sell the heritage cars or the MTC, which is pretty much never going to happen while they run an F1 team.

And that's why they need an equity investor - not just for the Racing Group, but also to help re-finance the long term debt (and future growth) at Automotive.

And by the way, Automotive is a separate business, so even if it did have the cash it would either have to take an equity stake or loan the money to McLaren Group. It can't simply cross-subsidize as the racing-related businesses within Group do above, because they are not part of the same holding company.

I didn't post these to knock McLaren, just wanted to see what kind of impact a lack of main sponsor has on a team's cashflow.

UPDATE:

2010 Profit before tax: -£20.3M (loss)
2009 Profit before tax: -£43.3M (loss)


So that is actually a hole closer to £129M, probably more if I look back further....

How is that financed?

"The owners also provided over £60m of debt to McLaren Automotive in 2009 with its inter-company loans accelerating from £50.6m to £112.7m."

So the owners paid in more equity to close the financing gap, and they actually also borrowed a loan from McLaren Group, (as I said above it had to be a loan or equity as they are separate companies). Here is the entry from the McLaren Group accounts, showing a 52M GBP loan to Automotive:

Image

And you can see how it is then counted in the current assets, which are inflated by a number close to that amount:

Image

So you see, if the financing goes in any direction, it is from the Racing group towards the Automotive company, not vice versa. And because of that loan, the balance sheet of McLaren group is not as flexible or cash-rich as you might think on first inspection. That loan sits on McLaren's books as an asset, making that balance sheet look healthy but it is actually somewhat more risky - how can they collect that loan in a hurry if they need the cash back at Group? Answer: they can't. Automotive doesn't have it. And again, we are led to the conclusion that they may well need an new equity cash injection to maintain operational cashflow now that the headline sponsors have moved along.

And that was just to 2010 - they may have paid another £65M or more since then to support the Automotive losses, which will be in the as-yet-unpublished 2013 and 2014 accounts.
This signature is encrypted to avoid complaints, but it makes me laugh out loud:-
16S75 13E7K 41C53 7CT23 14O5O 67R32 76175 90B67 L4L42 41O63 72W56 98M10 52E87

mclaren_mircea
mclaren_mircea
0
Joined: 10 Jan 2013, 13:16

Re: Mclaren-Mercedes F1 Team 2014

Post

Great analysis about the Honda engine for McLaren:
- concepts
- ideas
-technical partners
- facilities
-resources
-locations

Source: http://www.omnicorse.it/magazine/39840/ ... ri-marelli