Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

[ringo]

For me, this is somewhat embarrassing. The engines aren't spinning up to 18,000 rpm like the old v8s. They are spinning at 10,000rpm similar to road cars and yet things are failing. It shouldn't be so hard to make a reliable 10k rpm engine for a big company like Honda. The only explanation for this is some kind of funky never before tried architecture that they are using for the power unit. Too many parts are failing.
They could get it all together soon though and look like geniuses. However it kinds of remind me of Lotus Renault last year where they kept on promising that the car has lots of potential to unlock, but they just never got around to do it.
If McLaren does recover from this, I think it will take maybe to the fifth race.

[poolboy67]

They are spinning at 10,000rpm similar to road cars and yet things are failing. It shouldn't be so hard to make a reliable 10k rpm engine for a big company like Honda.

it's actually close to 13k rpm, and just how many 700hp 1.6l road car engines are there... right ZERO!

whenever people tune their stock road car engines from like 150hp to make something like 600hp, they most likely have some component failures, if not a full engine blow right at the dyno. making that kinda hp just isn't as simple as it may seem. and to get 700hp from a freaking tiny 1.6l engine, and then having the engine withstand 13k revs... it's a marvel of engineering.

honda just hasn't succeeded in that because it's an enormously hard task.

if you look at last year, because it truly is relevant here, only mercedes got it right. and they were reported to had poured hundreds of millions on money into the development of the engine. ferrari had moderate success with their engine but had big problems. renault engines were mostly bad and had lots of huge problems, but they still managed to finish races. most likely ferrari now has sorted most of their problems but are still nowhere near merc and renault has also sorted a large number of their problems, but still have issues.

point is, it's no surprise that honda's got big problems- especially when they're basicly two whole years behind development. two in development years and one in season running.

[taperoo2k]

For me, this is somewhat embarrassing. The engines aren't spinning up to 18,000 rpm like the old v8s. They are spinning at 10,000rpm similar to road cars and yet things are failing. It shouldn't be so hard to make a reliable 10k rpm engine for a big company like Honda.

The RPM limit is mandated in the technical regulations -
http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules ... ions/8699/
The things that appear to be failing on the Honda Power Unit are the ERS systems, highly complex pieces of engineering. And I think we've enjoyed a bit too much reliability in recent times, it should not be a shock when something breaks. F1 pushes everything to the limit through various forces.

The only explanation for this is some kind of funky never before tried architecture that they are using for the power unit. Too many parts are failing.

Actually I expected Honda to have these problems, getting the ICE, Turbo and ERS working together properly is no easy task. They will get it right eventually. It takes time to win in F1 and it's never a sure fire thing.

They could get it all together soon though and look like geniuses. However it kinds of remind me of Lotus Renault last year where they kept on promising that the car has lots of potential to unlock, but they just never got around to do it.
If McLaren does recover from this, I think it will take maybe to the fifth race.

It's probably going to take all season to get the best out of the MP4-30 and Power Unit. 2015 is more of a development year, it's what I thought back the deal with Honda was announced. Of course I hope McLaren pull a rabbit out of the hat. One must also remember that McLaren and Honda are learning to work together and are not as slick as the other teams yet.

[dren]

I'm not surprised by the issues. Honda has been out of the game for quite some time now. They have very little KERS experience, even though they probably have some expertise on the theory side through their hybrid program.

[frosty125]

So I have been looking at the McLaren cooling arangements and it appears to me that the layout is as follows.

2 Radiators above the PU one of them is small and clearly for the gearbox the other is much larger might be the air to air intercooler.



Better picture of the gearbox radiator which flips over when the rear is installed on the car to sit below the the larger radiator.



This image details the cooling in the sidepods clearly one large radiator (for ICE?) in left sidepod and 3 smaller radiators in the right sidepod (MGU-K, MGU-H, electronics and ES?).

[thedutchguy]

For me, this is somewhat embarrassing.

I think it's more than a little embarrassing. Last year this time everybody was all over Ranault for their disasterous pre-season, yet Honda seems to get away with very little criticism.

I hope for their sake that the engine / power unit has some very clever space-age-never-seen-before technology, because otherwise it's downright embarrassing to run into these problems when they've been looking and (one would presume) learning from their competition for a whole year.

[ringo]

Those seem kind of big for Energy store. Though I have not seen a definite radiator for ES on last years engines.
Are there any confirmed images of ES coolers?

Those radiators on the top of the engine seem like gearbox, and MGU coolers to me. The charge air cooler doesn't have to be in an air stream if we are assuming this car is water to air cooled.

As for the aerodynamic prowess of the chassis, it's unclear at this stage. We may need first hand accounts of how the car looks in the turns to get an idea of it's stability. The drivers seem to think the car is much improved in terms of handling though.

[ringo]

They are spinning at 10,000rpm similar to road cars and yet things are failing. It shouldn't be so hard to make a reliable 10k rpm engine for a big company like Honda.

it's actually close to 13k rpm, and just how many 700hp 1.6l road car engines are there... right ZERO!

whenever people tune their stock road car engines from like 150hp to make something like 600hp, they most likely have some component failures, if not a full engine blow right at the dyno. making that kinda hp just isn't as simple as it may seem. and to get 700hp from a freaking tiny 1.6l engine, and then having the engine withstand 13k revs... it's a marvel of engineering.

honda just hasn't succeeded in that because it's an enormously hard task.

if you look at last year, because it truly is relevant here, only mercedes got it right. and they were reported to had poured hundreds of millions on money into the development of the engine. ferrari had moderate success with their engine but had big problems. renault engines were mostly bad and had lots of huge problems, but they still managed to finish races. most likely ferrari now has sorted most of their problems but are still nowhere near merc and renault has also sorted a large number of their problems, but still have issues.

point is, it's no surprise that honda's got big problems- especially when they're basicly two whole years behind development. two in development years and one in season running.

I understand where you are coming from. I was of the same mind until I heard of oil leaks and water leaks. Those things seem a bit amateur for Honda. I guess it's the expectations that holding them to a really high standard. Also their involvement in turbo formulas outside of F1.
I think last year's Ferrari engine was very reliable and well put together. I think more so than a Mercedes. Renualt was the only engine you could say wasn't really fully prepared. But they still showed good running with toro roso. Honda have only one team to supply, and the PU is failing each day. They can do better.
Let's see how FP1 goes..

[frosty125]

Those seem kind of big for Energy store. Though I have not seen a definite radiator for ES on last years engines.
Are there any confirmed images of ES coolers?

Those radiators on the top of the engine seem like gearbox, and MGU coolers to me. The charge air cooler doesn't have to be in an air stream if we are assuming this car is water to air cooled.

As for the aerodynamic prowess of the chassis, it's unclear at this stage. We may need first hand accounts of how the car looks in the turns to get an idea of it's stability. The drivers seem to think the car is much improved in terms of handling though.

It would make sense if it was an air to air intercooler though as it wouldn't weight much and is close to the compressor. Omnicourse also suggested the same thing.

http://www.omnicorse.it/magazine/47599/ ... innovativi

However you could be right.

[dren]

I'm leaning more towards gearbox cooler, not an intercooler. I would think if it was an intercooler it would need to be bigger. It's certainly not a liquid to air charge cooler.

[frosty125]

I'm leaning more towards gearbox cooler, not an intercooler. I would think if it was an intercooler it would need to be bigger. It's certainly not a liquid to air charge cooler.

The lower radiator pictured below is the gearbox cooler the top radiator is far too large for the gearbox.

[radosav]

http://www.spreaker.com/user/f1_fans_up ... h-scarbsf1
Scarbs saying that Mclaren Honda car is year ahead in comparison what other teams are doing with chassis and engine.
From 28:45.

[radosav]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcm_-sr3 ... ata_player[/youtube]

[CjC]

http://www.spreaker.com/user/f1_fans_up ... h-scarbsf1
Scarbs saying that Mclaren Honda car is year ahead in comparison what other teams are doing with chassis and engine.
From 28:45.

This is gonna be confusing... Does he mean they are a year ahead of themselves, as in they started a year after everyone else but are a year ahead so they are on a par? OR does he mean they are literally a year ahead of the others in development terms/ chassis integration/ engine architecture?

As we know the honda has been designed for aero purposes.

[F1NAC]

http://www.spreaker.com/user/f1_fans_up ... h-scarbsf1
Scarbs saying that Mclaren Honda car is year ahead in comparison what other teams are doing with chassis and engine.
From 28:45.

This is gonna be confusing... Does he mean they are a year ahead of themselves, as in they started a year after everyone else but are a year ahead so they are on a par? OR does he mean they are literally a year ahead of the others in development terms/ chassis integration/ engine architecture?

As we know the honda has been designed for aero purposes.

he was referring to size zero chasis