Flexible wings 2011

[wesley123]

True, but in that case I am not agaisnt flexing, like it was said it is quite possible the Red bull front wing even touching the ground, which is a bit too much flexing, that is effectively creating full ground effects and we all know how unstable that is.

[Tozza Mazza]

Yes, I think it was Scarbs who linked on his twitter feed an image of an RBR mechanic attatching Rubbing Strips to the endplates. Its not so much the small amount of ground effect the Venturi Tunnels will create, it's the possibilty of a wing failure at a high speed corner like Eau Rouge, causing a 180mph crash/collision. The test is there for safety, and every team should put the safety of their drivers, stewards and fans before a performace gain.

[xpensive]

@richard: I agree with you on the key being cf layup tailored to meet regulation and deform under aero load. I asked to expensive why he thought drag was critical in this (aerodynamic torsion moment could be enough already).
While expensive underlines drag importance, I would highlight instead the possibility of twist-bend coupling of laminates.

We might be talking about the same thing here, horizontal drag load resulting in a twist-bend of the wing?

In either case, I like Richard's above description of the phenomena very much.

[HampusA]

See the pics above for how the teams measure these things in real life.

So do we put on the magic sensors before or after we sprinkle the tracks with fairy dust?

And again with the sneaky snake comments..

Can you make atleast one post without these comments?
Maybe try some constructive criticism instead because those comments doesn´t really help now do they? I´m sorry we had no idea you were the official F1 master who knows everything there is to know.. Give me a break.

He doesnt, what he iss aying is that such an idea is unclear. You, and a few others, make it sound like it is so easy to implement, which it obviously isnt, that is what richard meant i think.

Does FIA have this system you talk about? Have they even thought about using that system you are talking about?

No and no. How about talking to us like you would want to be talked to yourself?

How do you know?

Back to reality, Does these tests take into consideration on how much a nose flexes? or how much a FW pivots inwards compared to the general downforce pushing the wing down? Doubt it.

The nose it does, since the loads put on the Front wing gets carried through to the rest of the car, this energy has to go anywhere you know.

Apart from that, how does that sensor you recalled take the pivot of the wing into account?

I am for a system to ensure this, but a sensor is useless and way too high tech, plus to get realistic readings you need sensors all over the plce, ande these can get kicked off in case of damage.

That is why I am for a much simpler system which doesnt work different, LMP's have been using these for ages, you just add skid blocks in the footplates, by that way this can be regulated way easier, without the need of high tech gadgets all over the place.

well i´m pretty sure FIA would make their own don´t you think?

I´ve already said how to measure the front wing flex, the nosecone flex and the pivot FW flex. I honestly don´t think any super high tech sensors would be needed to figure out what the FW is doing under top speed.

How is a sensor useless? and why would i need more sensors then two? You read the sensor while stationary, if something is flexing more then 2cm then boom wing is illegal. I can´t see how more sensors would help since you only need two.

Now matter how strong the wind is or how fast you are going, 2cm is maximum.
(obciously saying this as i fired Whiting in the fantasy world)

[Tozza Mazza]

One sensor in nose/splitter (out of the way), another in the endplate or inside an element of the wing. more than 2cm vertical movement downwards (of course special cicrumstances permitting e.g. wing is not attatched to your car), boom, you sir, are disqualified.

[Richard]

x - The notion of horizontal, vertical and torsional are mere human constructs to describe the force vector and its relationship with the shear centre of the section. You can use the term "drag" for this thread if you like (in every sense )

It occurs to my rambling mind we that could also describe them as normal to the wing chord with an offset. See, I've excluded torsion from my description. Same result though.

The key (that you call drag and I call torsion) is to apply a force that is not in line with the centre of stiffness

[shelly]

@richard: I agree with you on the key being cf layup tailored to meet regulation and deform under aero load. I asked to expensive why he thought drag was critical in this (aerodynamic torsion moment could be enough already).
While expensive underlines drag importance, I would highlight instead the possibility of twist-bend coupling of laminates.

We might be talking about the same thing here, horizontal drag load resulting in a twist-bend of the wing?

In either case, I like Richard's above description of the phenomena very much.

I like richard description too. We are talking more or less the same thing, but I think that maybe torsion is more relevant than drag.
Also I think that it is a step beyond applying a force not in line with the center section: it is the laminate itself that bends if you twist it, and then you build a wing with that laminate.

[Tozza Mazza]

x - The notion of horizontal, vertical and torsional are mere human constructs to describe the force vector and its relationship with the shear centre of the section. You can use the term "drag" for this thread if you like (in every sense )

It occurs to my rambling mind that could also describe them as normal to the wing chord with an offset. I've excluded excluded torsion from my description. Same result though.

The key (that you call drag and I call torsion) is to apply a force that is not in line with the centre of stiffness

Wing main plane's tend to run with a 7.5 to 15 degree angle of attack (that is the chord angle), food for thought. mmmmmmm food.

[Richard]

Thanks for the appreciation. Any more would be most welcome

I think that maybe torsion is more relevant than drag

Torsion and drag could be the same force, it just depends on where you resolve them.

[xpensive]

...
The key (that you call drag and I call torsion) is to apply a force that is not in line with the centre of stiffness

Again a very painting description of torsion/twist, induced by a horizontal load, in turn stemming from aerodynamic drag.

[Tozza Mazza]

are we resolving horizontally or vertically? Time to do some Mechanics Trigonomotery Fcosx or Fsinx. The thing that confuses me about all this, is a front wing is made of Carbon Fibre, which is one of the strongest materials on the planet. In physics the other day, my teacher said that it has a young's modulus of 290Gpa, which is very very very very strong.

[Giblet]

Not to mention we have seen pics from the side where it obviously angled more than the rake of the car.

[xpensive]

...
The thing that confuses me about all this, is a front wing is made of Carbon Fibre, which is one of the strongest materials on the planet. In physics the other day, my teacher said that it has a young's modulus of 290Gpa, which is very very very very strong.

The point is that we are talking about an anisotropic structure, it does not have the same properties in every direction, which is why a torsion can result in a vertical movement. In the case of RBR, downwards.

[Richard]

a young's modulus of 290Gpa, which is very very very very strong.

Modulus of elasticity, so you are talking of stiffness not strength. 290 sounds a bit high. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_modulus

Anyway steel is 200, so your modulus for CF is only 50% higher. It is not as if CF is 10 times the stiffness.

Also, the above is only relevant to linear behaviour

[shelly]

Thanks for the appreciation. Any more would be most welcome

I think that maybe torsion is more relevant than drag

Torsion and drag could be the same force, it just depends on where you resolve them.

Agree of course. What I want to highlight,as I did not see it in your description, is that it is the laminate that behaves with twist-bend coupling (before the section exists let's say). As expensive has just written.