Italian GP 2011 - Autodromo Nazionale Monza

[ringo]

I bet Rosberg leads 10 laps in this race.
I bet he may win too.

REdbull will be strongest. Everyone remembered where Vettel finished last year after a really bad start?

[raymondu999]

James Allen's simulations report a DRS top speed of 340km/h and DRS shut at 334.

@Ringo - The Red Bull was the clear 3rd strongest in Monza last year. His 4th place was the absolute maximum his car could have got last year. It would've been 5th (probably) if Lewis hadn't retired on the first lap. Mercedes were quick in a straight but bad over a lap. The Ferraris and Button left the rest for dead. Between Alonso and Massa thre was only around 5 seconds; and from Massa to Vettel there were some 24 seconds.

If and when RBR lock out a front row in Monza this year; then I will concede that this car is devilish. Pole in Monaco, Barcelona, Hungary (though albeit some of those were very close calls) and Monza altogether is fearsome. I do have a funny feeling that RBR won't be in the doldrums and will be closer then they were last year. But I don't agree that they'll be the outright fastest package

[jamsbong]

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/09/i ... rand-prix/

James Allen's insight article is very good.
I wonder if anyone could go higher than 340km/h? MercGP would probably be the best bet. ForceIndia could be another team.

Speaking of speed, It was really amazing to see the MercGP cars were able to cruise at the same speed in SPA DRS on or off. The only difference is the time to takes to get there. Ferrari, RedBull can't do it. I am guessing the Merc engine is really strong, a lot of torque.

[raymondu999]

You mean power surely? Top speed is power limited rather than torque limited.

Speaking of power vs torque, and top speed with/without DRS. A person commented on JA's website, and F1Fanatic (VERY confidently, I might add) that the teams will be hitting the limiter in 7th with DRS in high-downforce mode; so using DRS just to augment acceleration rather than top speed.

However, I can't for the live of me see the light in that. Sounds rather silly.

[shelly]

Well there is no requirement for a rear wing in the regs, only a requirement for end plates for advertising. Also, cars "may" have DRS, the regs do not say they "shall" have them.

It'll be silly to have a flat plate instead of a wing, but they will be getting very shallow. I wonder if we'll see DRS that doesn't utilise the full 50mm permitted in the regs? ... or even no DRS?

Yup; there was speculation earlier in the thread; and in the McLaren MP4-26 thread; that some cars may try such a setup; as was tried by Williams and I believe BAR too a while back

I think a very efficient solution would be this: a symmetric section for both the rear main wing and the drs flap, with main wing at zero AoA and flap at zero AoA whne drs is active. Thus you would have a reasonable low downforce setup in drs closed position and virtually no drag in the drs open position.

[MrBlacky]

AUTOSPORT understands that teams have been told by Pirelli that the maximum limit it wants to see used at Monza is 3.75 degrees - which is a level that it feels will ensure no overheating problems on the straights but will also not hinder teams through the high-speed corners or chicanes.

At Spa, teams were asked not go beyond a 4-degree limit – but Red Bull Racing was understood to have pushed the limit to as far as 4.3 degrees. It was this that contributed to the tyres overheating on the straights – producing the blisters that proved so worrying ahead of the race.

jfyi

Pushing the limit all the way to 4.3 degrees... I got a good chuckle out of that.

I mentioned this already in canada where no one cared

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9380&p=260496#p260496

I think the problems started now cause they didn't run so much highspeed before.

[raymondu999]

Well there is no requirement for a rear wing in the regs, only a requirement for end plates for advertising. Also, cars "may" have DRS, the regs do not say they "shall" have them.

It'll be silly to have a flat plate instead of a wing, but they will be getting very shallow. I wonder if we'll see DRS that doesn't utilise the full 50mm permitted in the regs? ... or even no DRS?

Yup; there was speculation earlier in the thread; and in the McLaren MP4-26 thread; that some cars may try such a setup; as was tried by Williams and I believe BAR too a while back

I think a very efficient solution would be this: a symmetric section for both the rear main wing and the drs flap, with main wing at zero AoA and flap at zero AoA whne drs is active. Thus you would have a reasonable low downforce setup in drs closed position and virtually no drag in the drs open position.

Actually come to think of it; I just remembered something. If you looked at 2009; the two McLarens were running higher-than-normal AoAs; because KERS helped to offset the drag. We've been saying how a higher downforce solution wouldn't work because DRS drag reduction was limited in race use (unlike the F-duct), but KERS isn't.

[Richard]

I wouldn't call it a problem. Everything has a limit and Newey seems to like finding limits by stretching them to breaking point, hence the reliability and heating issues in previous years.

I wouldn't be surprised that if the camber gives a performance advantage then RB are looking at reducing other factors (toe, pressures, caster angles, etc etc)to allow them to maintain a higher camber.

So its not a problem, just engineering development.

[shelly]

My piont is that the low downforce requirements of monza make possible a different use of the DRS.
In normal tracks, when the drs is open tha main plane is stalled, so there is a reduction of induced drag but also additional drag is creted becuse of stall. The former being biggr than the latter determines an overall drag reduction.
With a setup like the one I suggested you would have no stall when the drs is open.
Your downforce level with drs closed could be also significant, or higher than normal.
Considering that 50mm is big for monza size rearwing, we could see big flap coupled with tiny main planes, and see a kind of role reversal: the front fixed element which is usually bigger becoming the smaller one ad acting as leading edge device for the rear mobile element, which usually has the role of flap.

[Richard]

I just remembered something. If you looked at 2009; the two McLarens were running higher-than-normal AoAs; because KERS helped to offset the drag.

That approach only works when you have something that the other teams don't have. So perhaps KERS in 09 and F-dcut in 10 allowed McLaren to run high AoA than the teams without (or less effective) KERS & F-duct.

I don't think any team has that unique advantage now. Of course the variations in drag or downforce from car to car will lead to variations in AoA, but not the barn door variation we saw with the f duct.

[PlatinumZealot]

AUTOSPORT understands that teams have been told by Pirelli that the maximum limit it wants to see used at Monza is 3.75 degrees - which is a level that it feels will ensure no overheating problems on the straights but will also not hinder teams through the high-speed corners or chicanes.

At Spa, teams were asked not go beyond a 4-degree limit – but Red Bull Racing was understood to have pushed the limit to as far as 4.3 degrees. It was this that contributed to the tyres overheating on the straights – producing the blisters that proved so worrying ahead of the race.

jfyi

Pushing the limit all the way to 4.3 degrees... I got a good chuckle out of that.

Remember how the RB5 was at 5 degrees on those brigdestones?

[raymondu999]

Remember how the RB5 was at 5 degrees on those brigdestones?

They announced 5 degrees? When? I don't remember that happening.

[PlatinumZealot]

James Allen's simulations report a DRS top speed of 340km/h and DRS shut at 334.

@Ringo - The Red Bull was the clear 3rd strongest in Monza last year. His 4th place was the absolute maximum his car could have got last year. It would've been 5th (probably) if Lewis hadn't retired on the first lap. Mercedes were quick in a straight but bad over a lap. The Ferraris and Button left the rest for dead. Between Alonso and Massa thre was only around 5 seconds; and from Massa to Vettel there were some 24 seconds.

If and when RBR lock out a front row in Monza this year; then I will concede that this car is devilish. Pole in Monaco, Barcelona, Hungary (though albeit some of those were very close calls) and Monza altogether is fearsome. I do have a funny feeling that RBR won't be in the doldrums and will be closer then they were last year. But I don't agree that they'll be the outright fastest package

Their aero efficiency was very competitive In Canada and Spa. Looks like Newey solved that issue after the RB6.

I don't expect it, but yeah if this car (RB7) dares to pole in Monza....

[andrew]

I doubt red Bull will win. Just can't see it sadly. My money's on a McLaren win.

Red Bull were let out of jail to an extent at Spa with Hamilton's crash. Given the way Button was making up ground late in the race I think that it would have been a close thing for Vettel to win, unless they were taking it easy.

[Mr Alcatraz]

With weekend temperatures projected between 27-29C, and Pirelli bringing the mediums and softs, I think it would be a mistake to discount Ferraris chances in this race.