Silly season 2016

[efuloni]

Hulk might go back to Williams. And it will be his best car in F1, so far.

[SimRacer]

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/07/f ... t-in-italy

"As for Hulkenberg, he is in demand lower down the grid; Force India would like him to stay and the new Haas F1 team are interested in his services, but that elusive top team seat seems destined not to happen for the German.

Detailed analysis of his on track performance data by the engineers, which Williams management will be studying now, as all the teams do, shows that while he has his moments of magic, he’s not at the level of a Bottas or a Ricciardo."



If the data doesn’t support Hulkenberg over Botas and Ricciardo, then the method must be flawed... OR maybe we should simply use data to declare race results because Hulkenberg sure fooled me with his performances.

[zeph]

I'm not yet entirely convinced by Bottas, but didn't Ricciardo destroy a 4-time WDC in an identical car last year?

Hulkenberg seems destined to be an Endurance legend. Happened to quite a few guys who never hit big time in F1.

[iotar__]

I'm not yet entirely convinced by Bottas, but didn't Ricciardo destroy a 4-time WDC in an identical car last year?

Based on one season with mostly no competition. I think by your (not mine!) definition he's getting now destroyed by F1's nobody and fellow RB program driver (an important theme) Kvyat .

- Bottas to Ferrari, not the best option but OK, nationality/marketing and maybe Wolff didn't hurt but If Ferrari paid millions of buy out clause they have more money than sense. They'd be done with the cost control.

So Bottas is outqualified and behind Vettel at Silverstone but faster, I wonder if the same people that lectured Williams ("Valterri is faster than you", a cup of hypocrisy anyone?) would be shouting after the race for team orders. I'm beginning to think that journalist are benefiting from hyping some drivers and not others regardless of facts, here both overtaken by Rosberg and Bottas dead slow in the wet.

- WIlliams' period of relative successes put them into debts so they may need a paying driver. F1 is a world of a complete fiction if they mention Nasr as some sort of on merit candidate. After only eight mediocre races Nasr is more Ecclestone's guarantee of a Brazilian driver in F1 type of deal. Why would Sauber break contracts with VdG and Sutil and pay for it so much? Do they need two Brazilians? I'm not sure about their logic and choices.

[PlatinumZealot]

Anybody is better than Kimi right now for the Tifosi.

[Vasconia]

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/07/f ... t-in-italy

"As for Hulkenberg, he is in demand lower down the grid; Force India would like him to stay and the new Haas F1 team are interested in his services, but that elusive top team seat seems destined not to happen for the German.

Detailed analysis of his on track performance data by the engineers, which Williams management will be studying now, as all the teams do, shows that while he has his moments of magic, he’s not at the level of a Bottas or a Ricciardo."



If the data doesn’t support Hulkenberg over Botas and Ricciardo, then the method must be flawed... OR maybe we should simply use data to declare race results because Hulkenberg sure fooled me with his performances.

Man, F1 is sometimes cruel....and stupid. I have seen Hulkenberg doing things that Bottas and Ricciardo havent done. I simply cant understand why he doesnt get the seat in Ferrari or another top team.

[djos]

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/07/f ... t-in-italy

"As for Hulkenberg, he is in demand lower down the grid; Force India would like him to stay and the new Haas F1 team are interested in his services, but that elusive top team seat seems destined not to happen for the German.

Detailed analysis of his on track performance data by the engineers, which Williams management will be studying now, as all the teams do, shows that while he has his moments of magic, he’s not at the level of a Bottas or a Ricciardo."



If the data doesn’t support Hulkenberg over Botas and Ricciardo, then the method must be flawed... OR maybe we should simply use data to declare race results because Hulkenberg sure fooled me with his performances.

Man, F1 is sometimes cruel....and stupid. I have seen Hulkenberg doing things that Bottas and Ricciardo havent done. I simply cant understand why he doesnt get the seat in Ferrari or another top team.

It's got nothing to do with Talent, every one knows hulk had it by the bucket, the problem is he's too tall and too heavy.

You only need to see Mark Webber vs Seb Vettel when they were both on form at the same time (pre the Pirelli era), Seb could usually pull 2/10ths on Mark in qually because he weighed 10 kilos less and was quite a bit shorter giving him a lower centre of gravity.

[Phil]

I can't help but think Ferrari isn't learning, they aren't progressing at all.

For 2010, they decided they want Alonso and Santander, so give the boot to Kimi who was showing signs of disinterest, lack of motivation and performance. Then in 2012, they found themselves struggling to find reasons to retain Massa, who has been struggling against Alonso (perhaps by some of their own doing) and in 2014, they are finding themselves struggling - AGAIN - to find reasons to retain Kimi, who replaced Massa on the very same basis, who has been struggling against both Alonso and Vettel...

...and they replace him with, who - Bottas - who has now raced against Massa for 2 years and hasn't faired that much better?

Yes yes yes, I hear you, Bottas blew Massa away in 2014 with a mighty points gap of 52 points, but really, Massa did have his fair share of issues and luck. He probably would have ended up behind Bottas that year, almost certainly in fact, but I feel the point difference is somewhat not all that representative. In truth, I have found them to be rather comparable. And in 2015, now that Massa has had a good start into the season (okay, Bottas didn't with his early DNS in Melbourne), race for race, on track performance, they are rather in the same ballpark. When reading the James Allen's article above, I read sentences like "best form of Massa since 2008" - really? With the exception of his Ferrari-Alonso-team-mate days that were perhaps a bit demoralizing, I'm starting to wonder how consistent and good he really is when matched with the cream of the crop. Alonso is undoubtedly one of them. Hamilton perhaps the other. Raikoennen? Certainly not now, not last year, and the year before perhaps were flattered by a car that brilliantly kissed the tires to victory. Perhaps he once was, way back in 2007, or that year too was perhaps flattered by a brilliant car and two McLaren drivers, at their best, who took each other out of the equation as they brought the team into meltdown, crisis and anarchy.

It's all going in circles. Again.

No offense to Bottas, he might surprise me. Or us. But I really don't think he has shown to be that much better than Massa, who I don't rate that high. On that basis, I think Hulkenberg would have shown promise, or... yes, Ricciardo. Perhaps not good for Vettel or his fans, or perhaps the best thing. Ricciardo is that yardstick who raced against Vettel, who is doing a brilliant job at Ferrari right now. Bottas isn't - he partnered Massa and didn't show that he was that much better (like Alonso did to both Kimi or Massa), and Massa himself didn't show that he was either better than Kimi when they raced together at Ferrari in 2007-2009 - well until Kimi seemed to have his head elsewhere.

Replacing Kimi with Massa was already IMO a weird decision. But Bottas now with Kimi? Oh dear.

It would have been nice to see the Scuderia do something unexpected. Take a leap of faith. Bottas just seems a bit like the 'easy choice'. More or less available, seemingly consistent (wasn't Kimi supposed to be that too?), and supposedly quick (ignoring that Massa seems to be as quick on most days recently)...

My slightly devils advocate take on what I expect to be confirmed soon.

[ME4ME]

To be fair, Massa has performed much better at Williams than he did at Ferrari. He seems more confortable, less under pressure.

So Bottas is doing a pretty good job. But I agree on choosing Hulkenberg over Bottas.

[PlatinumZealot]

Yeah, Massa is the one pulling the Magic at Williams. Can't remember anything memorable from Bottas. He's a steady hands Heidfeld kind of driver.

[spadeflush]

Completely agree that Hulkenberg deserves the seat more than Bottas. Both are good drivers, but Hulkenberg has proven himself more than Bottas. He has consistently scored more points than his teammates except for his debut season where Barrichello had the upper hand but he still got that pole position at Brazil which showed his potential. Thereafter, arguably with some experience, he has been unbeaten, atleast on points.

Bottas did beat Massa in 2014 but as has been stated before, the margin of points would have looked starkly different had Massa not had the bad luck he endured last year. Looking at the 2015 season I think the Williams drivers are very much on the same level.

This is what we, as fans can see in terms of driver comparisons. Now, James Allen states that teams have access to data, and the data shows that Hulkenberg maybe is not that good. Since we dont have the data, I wont argue for or against this statement.

The factors that go against Hulkenberg are his height/weight (which I believe is unfair but it is what it is), market (2 German drivers may not be good for Ferrari, as reported by various publications) and I believe he lacks that special something in terms of his management, and I am comparing his management with Valtteri's. Bottas, with the backing of Hakkinen and Toto Wolff has a definite advantage here.

As much as I want Hulkenberg to get that seat, it looks highly unlikely he will have it. F1 is business, and Ferrari will do what is best for business. They already have Vettel for the driver's title challenge.

[raymondu999]

You only need to see Mark Webber vs Seb Vettel when they were both on form at the same time (pre the Pirelli era), Seb could usually pull 2/10ths on Mark in qually because he weighed 10 kilos less and was quite a bit shorter giving him a lower centre of gravity.

10 kilos less would not be a factor tho given the ballast. He'd just have a lower CofG, not less mass

[djos]

You only need to see Mark Webber vs Seb Vettel when they were both on form at the same time (pre the Pirelli era), Seb could usually pull 2/10ths on Mark in qually because he weighed 10 kilos less and was quite a bit shorter giving him a lower centre of gravity.

10 kilos less would not be a factor tho given the ballast. He'd just have a lower CofG, not less mass

Seb could not only have the mass lower in the car, but he could move the ballast around to fine tune the cars balance- this is a fact and has been confirmed in public by either Adrian or Christian Iirc.

10kg of mass is a gigantic amount in F1!

[pob]

The weight distribution has been mandated in the rules since 2011, so since then it would only help lower the centre of gravity.

[FW17]

I think Vettel used the weight distribution excuse for his non performance last year

between vettel and ricciado who has a larger butt?