2017-2020 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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Henk
Henk
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Joined: 19 May 2015, 13:22

Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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The 100 kg fuel limit is not the only thing that makes lift and coast happen. The time most cars gain in the corners by being lighter, is more than the time loss of a bit of lift and coast. For 2017 the cap certainly has to be a bit higher but without refuelling you will keep seeing lift and coast.

I don't like the added aero in 2017 because it makes overtaking harder. Making the tires wider seems a good step to get more speed and a move to make the cars more reliant on mechanical grip.

In the pictures the cars look quite nice but I think they are misleading. The sidepods are not going to correspond with the width of the floor and it will look weird.

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Juzh
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Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 08:45

Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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Henk wrote:The 100 kg fuel limit is not the only thing that makes lift and coast happen. The time most cars gain in the corners by being lighter, is more than the time loss of a bit of lift and coast.
Urban myth. Lift and coast never happened to the extent it's happening post 2014, and even when it did it was a miscalculation most times. Why would you not start with 50 kg of fuel then, and lift at the start/finish line in, lets say, monza. Surely less weight penalty will offset something like 5 second loss while you coast to the first chicane? Give me a break.

Look at the old onboard videos and you will literally never see or hear lift and coast.

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henry
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Joined: 23 Feb 2004, 20:49
Location: England

Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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Henk wrote:The 100 kg fuel limit is not the only thing that makes lift and coast happen. The time most cars gain in the corners by being lighter, is more than the time loss of a bit of lift and coast. For 2017 the cap certainly has to be a bit higher but without refuelling you will keep seeing lift and coast.

I don't like the added aero in 2017 because it makes overtaking harder. Making the tires wider seems a good step to get more speed and a move to make the cars more reliant on mechanical grip.

In the pictures the cars look quite nice but I think they are misleading. The sidepods are not going to correspond with the width of the floor and it will look weird.
You are right. Red Bull and Vettel perfected the scheme. Load on downforce, gear short, qualify on pole, start light, run away in the first few laps then lift and coast to the chequered flag. Rinse and repeat.

I agree that the revised aero looks like it will make overtaking worse, as will wider and longer cars. The best we can hope for is that a team other than Mercedes/Ferrari perfects it first for a bit of light variation.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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Juzh
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Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 08:45

Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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henry wrote: You are right. Red Bull and Vettel perfected the scheme. Load on downforce, gear short, qualify on pole, start light, run away in the first few laps then lift and coast to the chequered flag. Rinse and repeat. .
Find me one onboard lap demonstrating lift and coast on the red bulls pre-2014.

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Holm86
247
Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 03:37
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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Image

I think there's a potential for the cars to look pretty good, personally I would like to see the cars become quite a bit shorter though. Could be nice to have a render with the proposed cocpit designs as well.

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henry
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Joined: 23 Feb 2004, 20:49
Location: England

Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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Juzh wrote:
henry wrote: You are right. Red Bull and Vettel perfected the scheme. Load on downforce, gear short, qualify on pole, start light, run away in the first few laps then lift and coast to the chequered flag. Rinse and repeat. .
Find me one onboard lap demonstrating lift and coast on the red bulls pre-2014.
Actually I doubt I can. I got carried away. Instead of lift and coast I should have said fuel save.

Apologies.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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DiogoBrand
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Joined: 14 May 2015, 19:02
Location: Brazil

Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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My dream formula would be to add way more mechanical grip and keep aero grip at a minimum, if I had to put it in numbers, it would be something like this:
Overall width: 215cm
Rear tyre width: 45cm (18in)
(Both of these changes pretty much bringing cars to 1992 dimensions, if I'm not mistaken)
Front tyre width:30cm
Rear wing width: 120cm (pretty much right between the rear tyres)
Front wing width: 165 cm (to keep it just wider than the inside of the front tyres)

Of course this could be due to some tweaking. I'm thinking the rear of the car would gain too much grip in comparison to the front, so something might be done in that front to keep a good balance.

Also, I think they could allow the diffuser to be wider, almost touching the tyre walls, because afaik the diffuser has a far smaller effect on wake than the rear wing, and maybe even a single-element rear wing not to let the rear gain too much grip.

It would also be subject to allowing for more aero if the cars didn't gain the performance they wanted them to. But with such increases in ride and tyre width, as well as allowing more fuel, I find that highly unlikely.

As for the aesthetic changes to make the cars look "menacing", that's all bullshit.

Nickel
Nickel
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Joined: 02 Jun 2011, 18:10
Location: London Mountain, BC

Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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This guy's desired rule changes:
-Tires not designed to degrade but to provide performance, especially when pushed
-force teams to put the full 100kg of fuel in the car. This will force them to push to lighten the car and significantly reduce lift and coast.
-no mandatory pit stop
-all compounds available at all races
-randomized start grid, no more qualifying. Run a sprint race for 1/4 points on Saturday also with a randomized start grid.
-wheel covers, especially on rear wheels, to reduce turbulent wake and allow closer racing.
-no drs enablement timing. Fixed number of deployments per race or unlimited use.
-no pit to car radio. Radio confined to car>pit, race director>car. Safety is covered, driver requests covered, the end. Pit to car can only happen via pit board.

The end

wuzak
wuzak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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Hamilton's pole time should make people start asking questions about making the cars 5s faster than now.

Already Hamilton is faster than the V10s around Albert Park and nearly as fast as Vettel's record lap of 2011.

How long do you think it would take for the FIA to decide that the cars have become too fast and unsafe, and should be slowed again?

CBeck113
CBeck113
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Joined: 17 Feb 2013, 19:43

Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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wuzak wrote:Hamilton's pole time should make people start asking questions about making the cars 5s faster than now.

Already Hamilton is faster than the V10s around Albert Park and nearly as fast as Vettel's record lap of 2011.

How long do you think it would take for the FIA to decide that the cars have become too fast and unsafe, and should be slowed again?
But then they barely get under 1:30 in the race...I do not think that the maximum speed should be changed, but they should be able to get close to it during the race, which means, in my humble opinion:

+ ditch the fuel flow limit, possibly reintroducing refueling (but I don't see that as necessary, when...)
+ bring back long-lasting sticky tires
+ bigger diffusor, simpler wings to make following possible
+ eliminate engine & transmission limit per season (the teams will spend 100% or more of their budget every year, no matter what rules are in place!)
+ alternative engines: twin electric turbo V6 with 1.6l and standard ERS though the standard electronics, or 2.2l TT w/o ERS - let the teams choose what's best for them
+ improve impact protection systems to protect the driver better while causing problems with the current aero solutions (nose, side-impact and the rear crash structures are too small in my opinion, and the front and real solutions need to be about the same height to work together)
+ completely flat bottoms otherwise, from the nose to the diffusor
+ keep these rules after a "test season" for the next 10 years minimum - nothing gives the big teams a bigger advantage than instable rules

I also have two crazy ideas:
1. steel brakes, which can overheat but regain their normal performance after being stressed
2. Surprize changes, with their implementation within two weeks of their announcement, to reward ingenuity and not jsut engineering budget.
“Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!” Monty Python and the Holy Grail

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DiogoBrand
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Joined: 14 May 2015, 19:02
Location: Brazil

Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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The only reason for today's cars to be quicker than 2004's on quali is because they didn't qualify on an empty tank in 2004.

wuzak
wuzak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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CBeck113 wrote:
wuzak wrote:Hamilton's pole time should make people start asking questions about making the cars 5s faster than now.

Already Hamilton is faster than the V10s around Albert Park and nearly as fast as Vettel's record lap of 2011.

How long do you think it would take for the FIA to decide that the cars have become too fast and unsafe, and should be slowed again?
But then they barely get under 1:30 in the race...I do not think that the maximum speed should be changed, but they should be able to get close to it during the race, which means, in my humble opinion:

+ ditch the fuel flow limit, possibly reintroducing refueling (but I don't see that as necessary, when...)

The Fuel Flow Limit has no impact on the difference between qualifying and race performance. In fact it most likely has the other effect (restricting qualifying performance). I think you mean the race fuel allowance of 100kg.

+ bring back long-lasting sticky tires
They don't really exist. Tyres will always degrade as they are used. The question is how much that degradation compares to the time gain from fuel usage lowering the car's weight. And then the equation is can the extra performance of new tyres compensate for an extra pit stop.

+ bigger diffusor, simpler wings to make following possible
Agreed.

+ eliminate engine & transmission limit per season (the teams will spend 100% or more of their budget every year, no matter what rules are in place!)
I would increase the number of combustion engines allowed (to 8). I believe this is the part that has performance degradation the most. Turbos and electrics should be fine with the current number.

There doesn't seem to be a great issue with gearbox usage.


+ alternative engines: twin electric turbo V6 with 1.6l and standard ERS though the standard electronics, or 2.2l TT w/o ERS - let the teams choose what's best for them
The problem with alternative engines is making them competitive with each other. The best way is the fuel flow limit.

+ improve impact protection systems to protect the driver better while causing problems with the current aero solutions (nose, side-impact and the rear crash structures are too small in my opinion, and the front and real solutions need to be about the same height to work together)
+ completely flat bottoms otherwise, from the nose to the diffusor
I would adopt the rules that existed before the stepped bottom came in. That is, flat from teh rear of teh front tyres to teh front of the rear tyres.

+ keep these rules after a "test season" for the next 10 years minimum - nothing gives the big teams a bigger advantage than instable rules
Performance might have to be kept in check over a long period. In general, though, rules stability is a good thing.

I also have two crazy ideas:
1. steel brakes, which can overheat but regain their normal performance after being stressed
2. Surprize changes, with their implementation within two weeks of their announcement, to reward ingenuity and not jsut engineering budget.
You're right, they are crazy ideas.

Steel brakes are just as powerful as carbon brakes. Just less reliable.
Surprise changes to rules will reward those with bigger budgets as they can throw more resources at the problem.
I ran some numbers on this year's race and that of 2011 (the qualifying session of which featured the only lap at Albert Park faster than Hamilton's Q3 effort). The result was that the fastest laps were within a few tenths of each other, and the race time, allowing for safety cars, red flags and fewer laps, was approximately the same.

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Juzh
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Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 08:45

Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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wuzak wrote:
CBeck113 wrote: + bring back long-lasting sticky tires
They don't really exist. Tyres will always degrade as they are used. The question is how much that degradation compares to the time gain from fuel usage lowering the car's weight. And then the equation is can the extra performance of new tyres compensate for an extra pit stop.
.
"they don't exist" aka pirelli is sh!t at making f1 tires.
2010 bridgestones disagree with that statement. I specifically remember turkey 2010 qualifying. RB6 taking turn 8 flat every single time racking up lap after lap, getting faster and faster. Pirellis would simply melt.
2006 michelins were also bulletproof.

CBeck113
CBeck113
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Joined: 17 Feb 2013, 19:43

Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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wuzak wrote:
CBeck113 wrote:
But then they barely get under 1:30 in the race...I do not think that the maximum speed should be changed, but they should be able to get close to it during the race, which means, in my humble opinion:

+ ditch the fuel flow limit, possibly reintroducing refueling (but I don't see that as necessary, when...)

The Fuel Flow Limit has no impact on the difference between qualifying and race performance. In fact it most likely has the other effect (restricting qualifying performance). I think you mean the race fuel allowance of 100kg.


Correct, I actually meant both, in order to make the engine proposals below work.


+ bring back long-lasting sticky tires
They don't really exist. Tyres will always degrade as they are used. The question is how much that degradation compares to the time gain from fuel usage lowering the car's weight. And then the equation is can the extra performance of new tyres compensate for an extra pit stop.

+ bigger diffusor, simpler wings to make following possible
Agreed. =D>

+ eliminate engine & transmission limit per season (the teams will spend 100% or more of their budget every year, no matter what rules are in place!)
I would increase the number of combustion engines allowed (to 8). I believe this is the part that has performance degradation the most. Turbos and electrics should be fine with the current number.

There doesn't seem to be a great issue with gearbox usage.


Maybe, but if they are allowed to push the limits, then there will be


+ alternative engines: twin electric turbo V6 with 1.6l and standard ERS though the standard electronics, or 2.2l TT w/o ERS - let the teams choose what's best for them
The problem with alternative engines is making them competitive with each other. The best way is the fuel flow limit.

I'd first see what can be made, and then begin to curb them for a year, with the warning to the others that the restrictions will be lifted the following year, and the estimated power of the PSU. The teams would then have the chance to get a performance lift from their engine supplier, or change the concept that they're using.


+ improve impact protection systems to protect the driver better while causing problems with the current aero solutions (nose, side-impact and the rear crash structures are too small in my opinion, and the front and real solutions need to be about the same height to work together)
+ completely flat bottoms otherwise, from the nose to the diffusor
I would adopt the rules that existed before the stepped bottom came in. That is, flat from teh rear of teh front tyres to teh front of the rear tyres.

I would like to see the noses lowered in a decent way, not the solution we have now, which is why I said nose to diffusor.


+ keep these rules after a "test season" for the next 10 years minimum - nothing gives the big teams a bigger advantage than instable rules
Performance might have to be kept in check over a long period. In general, though, rules stability is a good thing.

I also have two crazy ideas:
1. steel brakes, which can overheat but regain their normal performance after being stressed
2. Surprize changes, with their implementation within two weeks of their announcement, to reward ingenuity and not jsut engineering budget.
You're right, they are crazy ideas.

Steel brakes are just as powerful as carbon brakes. Just less reliable.

Yes, they also tend to overheat, but can cool down to reach their old performance - which also means that their limit can be exceeded without destroying them - great for surprise passing attempts...

Surprise changes to rules will reward those with bigger budgets as they can throw more resources at the problem.
Remember, there is a limit to every budget , and with unlimited engines you have to hamster some cash, so basically, when time is more a limiting factor, then the best solutions will be rewarded - a team for 500 engineers is useless if they don't find the silver bullet on their first attempt, since the solution also has to be simulated, prototyped and tested. But this would also benefit all other industries by further increasing rapid prototyping and simulation speeds.

I ran some numbers on this year's race and that of 2011 (the qualifying session of which featured the only lap at Albert Park faster than Hamilton's Q3 effort). The result was that the fastest laps were within a few tenths of each other, and the race time, allowing for safety cars, red flags and fewer laps, was approximately the same.
One other thing: the drivers must be allowed to make contact without massive reprocussions, barring deliberate collisions of course.
“Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!” Monty Python and the Holy Grail

CBeck113
CBeck113
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Joined: 17 Feb 2013, 19:43

Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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Juzh wrote:
wuzak wrote:
CBeck113 wrote: + bring back long-lasting sticky tires
They don't really exist. Tyres will always degrade as they are used. The question is how much that degradation compares to the time gain from fuel usage lowering the car's weight. And then the equation is can the extra performance of new tyres compensate for an extra pit stop.
.
"they don't exist" aka pirelli is sh!t at making f1 tires.
2010 bridgestones disagree with that statement. I specifically remember turkey 2010 qualifying. RB6 taking turn 8 flat every single time racking up lap after lap, getting faster and faster. Pirellis would simply melt.
2006 michelins were also bulletproof.
AMEN brother!
“Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!” Monty Python and the Holy Grail