Mercedes without Hamilton in numbers

[Gillian]

If I am being honest it's started to feel a little awkward to keep reiterating I'm not bashing/downplaying Hamilton. I'm not disagreeing with the fact Hamilton is an asset to Mercedes. He is.

I am however debunking the fact Hamilton is the sole reason Mercedes went from 1 to 100 poles. I'm deliberately not talking about races, just poles. Let me put it this way: If a team can take 17 out of 19 poles even when a driver is 0,5 slower each qualifying, then it does not come down to the performance of said driver. Did Hamilton make Mercedes stronger? Doh. Did Hamilton singlehandedly get Mercedes 100 poles? No. Facts posted above debunk that.

Who in the whole world is saying this ? You are attempting to debunk a made piece of made up rubbish. No one is saying the Lewis is the sole reason they went from 1 - 100. So I feel you may have wasted your time putting this impressive piece of information together.

I'm sure you remember the thread. As a relatively neutral fan of the sport it's just cringe to read the same thing over and over again, both for against Mercedes/Hamilton etc. I'd rather have some data to discuss than to keep doing the same dance over and over again...

[Just_a_fan]

I am however debunking the fact Hamilton is the sole reason Mercedes went from 1 to 100 poles.

No one said that. I was the person that stated the FACT that before the Hamilton/Rosberg era, Mercedes had a single pole. That was all that was said. There was no claim that Hamilton was the reason for all of the poles. That was you/others reading something that wasn't written.

[JordanMugen]

Let's say the Mercedes lineup from 2013 to 2016 was Rosberg and di Resta, with di Resta being drafted in to replace the retiring Schumacer. I still think Mercedes with Rosberg and di Resta would've won nearly everything, even though di Resta is probably quite a bit slower driver than Hamilton.

Driving the McLaren-Mercedes, McLaren-Honda and McLaren-Renault, Hamilton would probably not been particularly a factor for race victories. The second iteration of the Hamilton and Alonso stoush would've been intersting though, albeit for the odd 9th place finish, and with luck at that! Albeit Hamilton's McLaren-Renault and then McLaren-Mercedes would've improved massively since 2019 and Hamilton would probably have at least that Italian GP win on the board and possibly the Russian GP win too. So let's say Hamilton would've won two or maybe three Grand Prixs driving the McLaren-Mercedes, McLaren-Honda, McLaren-Renault and McLaren-Mercedes respectively from 2013 to 2021.

Now the question is would Rosberg have still retired? Probably not. Would di Resta still have left the sport? Possibly still so.

So let's say Wolff still brings in the Williams prodigy Bottas to replace di Resta from 2017 to present, and still overlooks Ocon. I think on average Rosberg would've still won the titles, including against Vettel's Ferrari.

So IMO, Mercedes without Hamilton would be a tale of Nico Rosberg 7 times Formula 1 World Driver's Champion.

I think Gillian's excellent analysis shows that Rosberg would've still won the 2014-2016 WDCs in strong fashion without Hamilton at Mercedes, and I expect Rosberg would've also won the 2017 through 2020 WDC titles IMHO.

There was no claim that Hamilton was the reason for all of the poles. That was you/others reading something that wasn't written.

Hamilton was consistently a very, very poor "wingman" for Nico Rosberg, and provided very little support towards Rosberg becoming WDC. Almost the opposite even, as if trying to deny Rosberg the WDC!

I suspect di Resta would have been a far superior "wingman" for Rosberg IMHO.

[Just_a_fan]

I think Gillian's excellent analysis shows that Rosberg would've still won the 2014-2016 WDCs in strong fashion without Hamilton at Mercedes, and I expect Rosberg would've also won the 2017 through 2020 WDC titles IMHO.

The analysis was for poles, not race wins. In races, Rosberg was generally not quite as successful as Hamilton was when the car wasn't up front and out of there.

Ultimately, the only driver that a given driver can be compared to is his team mate. And in that comparison, Hamilton has done the job required against Rosberg 3 times out of 4 and against Bottas 5 times out of 5. Just as he did against Alonso in their single season together and 2 times out of 3 against Button.

People can use the "the car's so good" stick to beat the bloke all they like (whatever there motives for feeling the need to do so are), but the reality is that he is still a 7-time FIA Formula One World Champion. Anything else is just fantasy.

[Just_a_fan]

Hamilton was consistently a very, very poor "wingman" for Nico Rosberg, and provided very little support towards Rosberg becoming WDC. Almost the opposite even, as if trying to deny Rosberg the WDC!

I suspect di Resta would have been a far superior "wingman" for Rosberg IMHO.

At no point was Rosberg dominating the championship and fighting against another team. No other team led the title race in 2016 so the fight was between the two team mates. That's not a "please let the other car through" situation and so no "wing man" requirements existed. But nice straw man you made there.

[hollus]

OK, guys. I leave you to you to check how many times different mods have asked not to derail this thread. If commentary is not about the data, don't.

It will be a warning below here, not just a deleted post, if it appears that it is trying to derail or shut down debate on the data, even if it is the third warning.

[smilodon]

In 2018 Hamilton would be world champion in Ferrari too.
Hamilton is fast in a single lap and his race level is way better than Rosberg, Vettel or Ricciardo.... Only Verstappen is on this level.