2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
riff_raff
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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CMSMJ1 wrote:There are benefits to both - IL4 will be more frugal, V6 will be smoother and possibly more powerful.
A 1.6L I4 short-stroke race engine will have acceptable dynamic balance. The I4 also has the benefit of half the number of cylinder heads, cams, headers, etc. than a V6. As for weight or structural efficiency, an unstressed 1.6L I4 F1 engine could be made quite light (likely <150 lbs.) and compact. This would allow a composite perimeter structure connecting the tub and transmission, which could actually give better and more consistent chassis torsional/bending stiffnesses than using the engine as structure.
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

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djos
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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Riff raff, that is all true but what an i4 isnt is sexy - F1 is sexy and therefore it needs a twin turbo V6 not an i4 - this isn't the WRC running modified Hatch-back bodies that in street form have i4's to begin with!
"In downforce we trust"

xpensive
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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Again, it seems it's France against the rest of the world here, no way they're going to win this one. My guess is the suburban formula will be postponed to 2015 just to save MrT's face, but then quickly fading away and mercyfully forgotten.

Why Renault is so hellbent on the four-banger is difficult to see, it will cost them a shitload of money as well, in particular to develop and implement all those Greenpeace-gimmicks in order to save a few cc's of fuel per lap?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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Jeffsvilleusa
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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Forgive if this was already covered:

So the proposed engine is unstressed? When was the last time this was the case in F1?

So lame- no longer the car will BE the engine. Instead, the engine is in there somewhere. :roll:

Of course this is my subjective opinion, and a technical forum has no place for subjective opinion :wink:

No matter what, as Alonso says when asked about new regs, "it's the same for everybody," so I suppose the engineers take what they are given and do what they do.

The real question is, will I finally have cable TV by then so I can watch the blessed races?
Box! Box!

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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djos wrote:Riff raff, that is all true but what an i4 isnt is sexy - F1 is sexy and therefore it needs a twin turbo V6 not an i4 - this isn't the WRC running modified Hatch-back bodies that in street form have i4's to begin with!
[...] The intended power train is a high tech marvel that has nothing in common with road cars but the cylinder configuration. The power will be above 800 hp like the current V8s. Everything else is a lie. Those engines will be sexy like hell and they will beat the old clapped out gas guzzlers with both hands tied on the back in a fuel restricted formula. People should not listen to the wasters.

Unstressed or semi stressed makes no difference. Both concepts can be successfully applied as the available examples show. The real point is they will be more efficient, lighter, less expensive to manufacture and more powerful than V6 turbos. The high cylinder count is only favoured by people who don't understand engineering.
Last edited by Steven on 21 Jun 2011, 22:24, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Calming things a bit (I hope)
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

alelanza
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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xpensive wrote:
...Why Renault is so hellbent on the four-banger is difficult to see...
I think the answer lies here:
M. Whitmarsh wrote:“We have to accept, respect and not despise the fact that the manufacturers are here to sell cars. If F1 is to be the ideal platform for product exposure and differentiation of their brand we need a formula that is relevant to them and to the needs of society.
If you're Renault the product you sell stands to benefit more from an I4 F1, make it turbo on top of that and you can start thinking about the adds saying 'Renault revolutionized F1 over 30 years ago with their turbo tech....' think movie trailer voice

[...]
Last edited by Steven on 21 Jun 2011, 22:27, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed personal bits
Alejandro L.

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FW17
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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djos wrote:Riff raff, that is all true but what an i4 isnt is sexy - F1 is sexy and therefore it needs a twin turbo V6 not an i4 - this isn't the WRC running modified Hatch-back bodies that in street form have i4's to begin with!
V8 is more synonymous to NASCAR and Ford Mustang, So whats so sexy about the first one?

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djos
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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WilliamsF1 wrote: V8 is more synonymous to NASCAR and Ford Mustang, So whats so sexy about the first one?
A V8 is sexy regardless of capacity, what makes the 2.4ltr V8 sexy is High RPM's, High Power, low weight all from a very modest capacity.

NASCAR v8's may be crude by F1 standards but to get a 6.0ltr Natmo, carby fed, OHV engine to do 9,000rpm and put out 800hp+ is still impressive engineering.
"In downforce we trust"

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FW17
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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djos wrote: NASCAR v8's may be crude by F1 standards but to get a 6.0ltr Natmo, carby fed, OHV engine to do 9,000rpm and put out 800hp+ is still impressive engineering.
It is sexier to put out 800 horses from 1.5 liters and laugh at guys with such a big engine, gas tank and bill.

A turbo engine also sounds better as we get two tones out of it, the exhaust and the turbo whine as against the monotone of a NA engine.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4-Jb7_zYE4[/youtube]

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djos
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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WilliamsF1 wrote: It is sexier to put out 800 horses from 1.5 liters and laugh at guys with such a big engine, gas tank and bill.

A turbo engine also sounds better as we get two tones out of it, the exhaust and the turbo whine as against the monotone of a NA engine.
--snip--
Im not against a 1.6ltr engine, im again an i4 engine! I want a 1.6ltr V6 Twin Turbo with all the toys. [-o<

I like big and small engines, I drive a 1.8ltr Mazda 323 Astina and it's a very fun car but in a few years, when I've paid off a decent chunk of my mortgage, Im going out and buying a RWD Ford Falcon GT-P with a huge ass 5.0ltr quad-cam supercharged V8 in it!
"In downforce we trust"

rjsa
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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[...]
Last edited by Steven on 21 Jun 2011, 22:38, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Agreed, but removed to prevent further comments

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jddh1
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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I still think limiting fuel consumption for the race for all and opening up all sorts of engines would be more interesting than this.

Pingguest
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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The 1.6-litre L4T-engine origins from the 'World engine' or 'global racing engine' (GRE) concept, as advocated by Max Mosley and Ulrich Baretzky. The idea was to have one basic, homologated and mandated engine configuration for virtually all racing series - from WTCC to Formula 1, from Formula 3 to the Le Mans Prototypes - which would also be more fuel-efficient and road relevant. However, the concept has failed: having purposely designed instead of production-based engines goes against spirit of series like WTCC and WRC. The proposed engine for Formula 1 isn't according to the GRE-concept either, but still based on this concept.

With this concept Formula 1 aims for more more fuel-efficiency, a green(er) image and more road relevancy. However, Ferrari opposes the concept because of various reason, the most important being it's irrelevant to them. And right on this one. Their road cars have bigger, normally aspirated ones. Doesn't this very much prove the GRE-concept doesn't fit Formula 1? If this concept is to make Formula 1 more road relevant, shouldn't it count for all participants?

As Formula 1 has a huge variety of participants - privateers, manufactures of common road cars and of sport cars - it could be argued that no single concept will be relevant to all of them. The question rises whether it fits the current situation to mandate one specific engine configuration. Wouldn't it be better to allow any engine configuration? Reduced grip and weight could be used to keep the performances in check and to have a set of rules lacking an absolute point of perfection, making the design of a car more a matter of human instincts and clever thinking instead of on-going development.

Lastly, a number of thoughts about Formula 1 aiming for lower fuel consumption and relevancy. If Formula 1 is really serious about this, it should reconsider its being as an open-wheel series and its regulations regarding active aerodynamics, active suspension and all wheel drive.

autogyro
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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McLaren follows Ferrari on many issues.
In this case it is because they manufacture a very 'limited' range of road vehicles in very 'limited' numbers, that rely on motor heads to buy them.
Of course they will greedily prefer V8s V10s and V6s for their own purposes.
This is only a very small part of the world car markets.

The attitude of Ferrari and the way McLaren is 'hedging their bets, is one of the
main reasons for other engine manufacturers other than Renault wanting to become involved. They see F1 at the moment as an 'old boys' club that has a Ferrari gun
at its head.

The future is efficient I4 road engines with energy recovery, it is nowhere near
Ferraris narrow focused ideals, or even McLarens.

F1 will be very badly damaged if Ferrari gets its way. With Murdoch the slayer in
the wings dribbling like a vulture from Hell, expect pay TV if its V6.
Get yer wallets out fellas.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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Pingguest wrote: However, the concept (of GRE)has failed: having purposely designed instead of production-based engines goes against spirit of series like WTCC and WRC. The proposed engine for Formula 1 isn't according to the GRE-concept either, but still based on this concept.
That is not correct in my view. The proposed F1 engine is based on the same block as other GRE engines would be, but it would not follow the additional restrictions for lower classes, where a lot more technical restrictions are set to make the concept very affordable to engine tuners and manufacturers alike. F1 is not in the same situation as some series that can only afford engines cost of some €100k per annum. They can easily absorb several million which leads to a wider technical scope than the GRE concept offers. To me the choice to use the same type of block makes sense as more manufacturers will be attracted over the long run and it is a very efficient concept.

Pingguest wrote:If this concept is to make Formula 1 more road relevant, shouldn't it count for all participants? As Formula 1 has a huge variety of participants - privateers, manufactures of common road cars and of sport cars - it could be argued that no single concept will be relevant to all of them. The question rises whether it fits the current situation to mandate one specific engine configuration. Wouldn't it be better to allow any engine configuration? Reduced grip and weight could be used to keep the performances in check and to have a set of rules lacking an absolute point of perfection, making the design of a car more a matter of human instincts and clever thinking instead of on-going development.
The analysis about the F1 participants is correct but the conclusion is somewhat short sighted. F1 has always had restrictions on engine configurations since the first Concord agreement in 1981. The restrictions have been tightened over the time to avoid unnecessary spending. The commonly agreed principle of the engine working group for cost restrictions was to select a relatively narrow technical concept, have resource or budget restrictions for development and homologation with annual freeing up in some areas of technology. This is a balanced approach which would bring back some innovation, some freedom and maintain affordability. Hence my support for the idea which was promoted by Cosworth and ultimately led to the selection of the I4 configuration.
Pingguest wrote:Lastly, a number of thoughts about Formula 1 aiming for lower fuel consumption and relevancy. If Formula 1 is really serious about this, it should reconsider its being as an open-wheel series and its regulations regarding active aerodynamics, active suspension and all wheel drive.
I don't agree with that view. We have sports cars for closed wheels. F1 should remain open wheel and open cockpit. The proper answer is to pursue a low drag, ground effect using, open wheel chassis as proposed by the FiA expert group for 2013. It is a shame that this plan was shot down by the teams because they fear that it will shake up the current performance order. Active aero, active suspension and AWD is something that I agree with. But it needs to be introduced in small homologation steps to keep the formula affordable.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)