2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[continuum16]

While not a 1:1 scenario, and maybe it’s just me, but I’m getting the feeling that Mercedes is on McLaren’s trajectory, just on a 10 year delay. As the MP4-28 failed to deliver despite the promise shown in development (sound familiar), they thought one year as a midfield team was a blip and that the MP4-29 would be better (it did benefit from new regs). As the team management struggled to adjust to no longer winning races, it became apparent that the MP4-29 was not really better, and an upgrade at the second or third race (which was supposed to save the season) did not deliver expected results. As underperformance became the norm, technical and leadership personnel suddenly started dropping like flies. They began to just throw increasingly radical solutions at their problems (butterfly suspension, size-zero, Honda tbh, etc.) and when nothing stuck, eventually the team basically went into full meltdown, and the team manager and part-owner who had been there during their successful period(s) eventually was forced out and they never really recovered 10 years later.

Maybe I’m reading too much into this, and like I said it’s not 1:1, but McLaren failed because it failed to move with the times and lost personnel. Could Merc be on the same path?

[karana]

...

Not sure how this one starts, but if any development work is done on items that are not fitted during a race weekend, time and material costs do not count towards the budget cap - they do, however, count towards the WT/CFD ‘budget’; again all fuelled by whataboutery.

...

As I understand it are items, that are not used and are not planned to be used in the future, classified as redundant inventories, which actually do count towards the budget cap. Article 4.1(f)(i)(iii) of the finacial regulations:

the cost of an item of Redundant Inventories (which has not been
recognised in a previous Full Year Reporting Period pursuant to any
other provision of this Article 4.1(f)(i)) must be recognised in full as an
expense in the Reporting Period. Where practicable, the identification
of Redundant Inventories must be carried out on an item-by-item
basis. Otherwise, groups of similar items may be considered together.

The definition of Redundant Inventories:

"Redundant Inventories" means Inventories held but not for future use in respect of the F1
Team’s Current Cars, as:
i. they are damaged or destroyed;
ii. they are obsolete; or
iii. the F1 Team determine they will not be used in the future in respect of the F1 Team’s
Current Cars.

[ValeVida46]

In any case, given Mercedes only own 30% or 33% of the team, that would be the perfect opportunity for Honda to buy into a team without needing to pay for the full team value and have Honda Racing F1 back in Brackley - this time with sponsorship from fellow part-owner Ineos and hopefully no crazy ideas of painting the car like a globe!

Mercedes seeking to exit their works team, would really be the perfect opportunity for Honda in my opinion. Granted it sounds like many facilities have not been upgraded since 2014, so the capital investment required may not be so much lower than Williams Racing or AlphaTauri as one would necessarily expect!

The whole set up of the team from day 1 was a part ownership.
With the budget cap, Mercedes F1 team is a self contained entity with funds self generated. So if Mercedes have no F1 team expense, and have zero intention to sell, how does Honda fit into the equation?

[Stu]

This is being dragged off topic…

Team thread 2023

[mendis]

In any case, given Mercedes only own 30% or 33% of the team, that would be the perfect opportunity for Honda to buy into a team without needing to pay for the full team value and have Honda Racing F1 back in Brackley - this time with sponsorship from fellow part-owner Ineos and hopefully no crazy ideas of painting the car like a globe!

Mercedes seeking to exit their works team, would really be the perfect opportunity for Honda in my opinion. Granted it sounds like many facilities have not been upgraded since 2014, so the capital investment required may not be so much lower than Williams Racing or AlphaTauri as one would necessarily expect!

The whole set up of the team from day 1 was a part ownership.
With the budget cap, Mercedes F1 team is a self contained entity with funds self generated. So if Mercedes have no F1 team expense, and have zero intention to sell, how does Honda fit into the equation?

The answer to that question are a few more questions. Is Mercedes willing to slog it out, once again? With a glorious recent past, what's the appetite to be an also ran and for how long, before another renaissance, if there can be one in a cost cap era? Do they risk losing brand value, that has been sky high with the recent success, in anticipation of another high from the current low? They may not be spending any money, but is it worth to start losing that brand presence if they keep fighting in the mid field? This is going to be a very interesting year ahead.

[ValeVida46]

The answer to that question are a few more questions. Is Mercedes willing to slog it out, once again? With a glorious recent past, what's the appetite to be an also ran and for how long, before another renaissance, if there can be one in a cost cap era? Do they risk losing brand value, that has been sky high with the recent success, in anticipation of another high from the current low? They may not be spending any money, but is it worth to start losing that brand presence if they keep fighting in the mid field? This is going to be a very interesting year ahead.

There is precedent for no sale or withdrawal. Merc have been involved in the sport since 1995. Even back then there were always unfounded rumours circulating about withdrawals. From 2002 there were more, then 2007 spygate fiasco at McLaren, then 2010-2012 with Schumacher and finishing 3rd/4th.
Back then they were spending money from the company.
However in 2023, they aren't spending company cash, and are in a tough spot behind 3 other teams.
There is a clear path to follow that will not take a month. Mercedes understand that, and have form of understanding that or else they would've left on the first or second hurdle.
The argument for brand value doesn't stack imo...Ferrari and McLaren would've been well and truly finished if this held any water, right?

[AR3-GP]

Apparently Mike Elliot has been getting a lot of abuse on social media.

[Venturiation]

i think the team underestimated the jump from other teams and set goals too low

now they have an ok platform and need to work on it, it seem a floor update is coming this week

[basti313]

The answer to that question are a few more questions. Is Mercedes willing to slog it out, once again? With a glorious recent past, what's the appetite to be an also ran and for how long, before another renaissance, if there can be one in a cost cap era? Do they risk losing brand value, that has been sky high with the recent success, in anticipation of another high from the current low? They may not be spending any money, but is it worth to start losing that brand presence if they keep fighting in the mid field? This is going to be a very interesting year ahead.

There is precedent for no sale or withdrawal. Merc have been involved in the sport since 1995. Even back then there were always unfounded rumours circulating about withdrawals. From 2002 there were more, then 2007 spygate fiasco at McLaren, then 2010-2012 with Schumacher and finishing 3rd/4th.
Back then they were spending money from the company.
However in 2023, they aren't spending company cash, and are in a tough spot behind 3 other teams.
There is a clear path to follow that will not take a month. Mercedes understand that, and have form of understanding that or else they would've left on the first or second hurdle.
The argument for brand value doesn't stack imo...Ferrari and McLaren would've been well and truly finished if this held any water, right?

I agree to some point, but I do not know if the comparison is 100% correct. As you say, the past rumors as engine supplier were 100% correct, it was a question if the money payed off at some point and then it is normal that the company calculates the marketing cost. BUT....F1 has changed. Merc is following the and this (letter) drama baby approach for a good reason. The marketing is much better than in the past. Although certainly paying for the drivers, the marketing value is extremely high since 2014. There is no reason why they should withdraw, they have set it up in exactly the spot that they have now in terms of marketing and cost.

[mstar]

- Mercedes is expected to bring a few new parts to the Saudi GP
- Big upgrade package will arrive at Imola

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... on-martin/

Somewhere else said floor will change for saudi so probably just that

Yes scarbs said new revised floor for this race, not sure how scarbs knew but he mentioned it maybe he has sources? If it is floor it be hard to verify as its hard to spot.

[gh0stadian]

Guys, quick question to clarify 2 concept path. If the part is developed and manufactured, but didn t used in any practice session, Q, R, is it counted to budget cap ? I mean CFD and time spend propably can not be excluded but manufacturing cost should right ? So its not imposible to merc to develop 2 car paths and then decide which part is the right and scrap parts that was in pipeline but didnt make it to car.

Maybe follow up question would be what fraction of part cost could be saved due to not using it on car ?

[mstar]

2 different concepts if they are going to a new concept, it be planned and being manufactured before the season starts and in progress now.

[ValeVida46]

I agree to some point, but I do not know if the comparison is 100% correct. As you say, the past rumors as engine supplier were 100% correct, it was a question if the money payed off at some point and then it is normal that the company calculates the marketing cost. BUT....F1 has changed. Merc is following the and this (letter) drama baby approach for a good reason. The marketing is much better than in the past. Although certainly paying for the drivers, the marketing value is extremely high since 2014. There is no reason why they should withdraw, they have set it up in exactly the spot that they have now in terms of marketing and cost.

Yes it's all exposure and value to Mercedes AMG, which is actually autonomous from Mercedes itself.
Ultimately this is brand building, AMG even made an F1 engine hypercar...reinforcing it's link to the sport.
Brand value is also increased with longevity, results are a factor, but results have not been terrible by any stretch over the last year. Especially when we compare, as I've said before, McLaren and Ferrari.
They retain premium brand image, regardless of mediocre results through their low spells.

[AR3-GP]

The answer to that question are a few more questions. Is Mercedes willing to slog it out, once again? With a glorious recent past, what's the appetite to be an also ran and for how long, before another renaissance, if there can be one in a cost cap era? Do they risk losing brand value, that has been sky high with the recent success, in anticipation of another high from the current low? They may not be spending any money, but is it worth to start losing that brand presence if they keep fighting in the mid field? This is going to be a very interesting year ahead.

There is precedent for no sale or withdrawal. Merc have been involved in the sport since 1995. Even back then there were always unfounded rumours circulating about withdrawals. From 2002 there were more, then 2007 spygate fiasco at McLaren, then 2010-2012 with Schumacher and finishing 3rd/4th.
Back then they were spending money from the company.
However in 2023, they aren't spending company cash, and are in a tough spot behind 3 other teams.
There is a clear path to follow that will not take a month. Mercedes understand that, and have form of understanding that or else they would've left on the first or second hurdle.
The argument for brand value doesn't stack imo...Ferrari and McLaren would've been well and truly finished if this held any water, right?

PU division is still spending company cash. Toto, Horner said PU business isnt really profitable anymore.

[Big Tea]

The answer to that question are a few more questions. Is Mercedes willing to slog it out, once again? With a glorious recent past, what's the appetite to be an also ran and for how long, before another renaissance, if there can be one in a cost cap era? Do they risk losing brand value, that has been sky high with the recent success, in anticipation of another high from the current low? They may not be spending any money, but is it worth to start losing that brand presence if they keep fighting in the mid field? This is going to be a very interesting year ahead.

There is precedent for no sale or withdrawal. Merc have been involved in the sport since 1995. Even back then there were always unfounded rumours circulating about withdrawals. From 2002 there were more, then 2007 spygate fiasco at McLaren, then 2010-2012 with Schumacher and finishing 3rd/4th.
Back then they were spending money from the company.
However in 2023, they aren't spending company cash, and are in a tough spot behind 3 other teams.
There is a clear path to follow that will not take a month. Mercedes understand that, and have form of understanding that or else they would've left on the first or second hurdle.
The argument for brand value doesn't stack imo...Ferrari and McLaren would've been well and truly finished if this held any water, right?

PU division is still spending company cash. Toto, Horner said PU business isnt really profitable anymore.

Even less so if another one or two (or three) makers come on the market.