Malaysian GP 2012 - Sepang International Circuit

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
Crucial_Xtreme
Crucial_Xtreme
404
Joined: 16 Oct 2011, 00:13
Location: Charlotte

Re: Malaysian GP 2012 - Sepang International Circuit

Post

FakeAlonso wrote:
Well done Crucial. I was wondering during the race why Alonso had is rain light still on when and Perez no. Maybe he was waiting for to make a surprise to Checo. :) Good for Checo, we saw what happened to Maldonado in Melbourne.
I believe the engine maps and the rain light are connected. So I think it's fairly safe to assume Fernando was still on a rain map in the last stint and could have switched over if he needed for some extra power to keep Perez back maybe.

Giblet
Giblet
5
Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
Location: Canada

Re: Malaysian GP 2012 - Sepang International Circuit

Post

Shrieker wrote: Ferrari have brought this upon themselves as a fellow poster has pointed out. Technically speaking, of course they're innocent until proven guilty :wink:
But Sauber have not, which is why I find this so unfair to Sauber.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

mx_tifoso
mx_tifoso
0
Joined: 30 Nov 2006, 05:01
Location: North America

Re: Malaysian GP 2012 - Sepang International Circuit

Post

"Guilty by association"?
Forum guide: read before posting

"You do it, then it's done." - Kimi Räikkönen

Por las buenas soy amigo, por las malas soy campeón.

User avatar
JohnsonsEvilTwin
0
Joined: 29 Jan 2010, 11:51
Location: SU 419113

Re: Malaysian GP 2012 - Sepang International Circuit

Post

The hypothesis is similar to that as the argument for a faked moon landing.

Ferrari did such and such to prevent X from winning Y. Its absolute total bollocks.
Peter Sauber, would not play second fiddle to Ferrari. Simple as that.
If Ferrari wanna pull the plug on engines, Mr Sauber has Mercedes and Renault to call upon.

This was just a simple warning to a young promising kid to bring his horse home intact.
Read into it what you will, but the integrity of the people involved hear speaks far more than a radio message that can be interpreted a hundred different ways.

In the end, a brilliant Alonso victory, and a coming of age for the young Perez.

FIN
More could have been done.
David Purley

Crucial_Xtreme
Crucial_Xtreme
404
Joined: 16 Oct 2011, 00:13
Location: Charlotte

Re: Malaysian GP 2012 - Sepang International Circuit

Post

JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:The hypothesis is similar to that as the argument for a faked moon landing.

Ferrari did such and such to prevent X from winning Y. Its absolute total bollocks.
Peter Sauber, would not play second fiddle to Ferrari. Simple as that.
If Ferrari wanna pull the plug on engines, Mr Sauber has Mercedes and Renault to call upon.

This was just a simple warning to a young promising kid to bring his horse home intact.
Read into it what you will, but the integrity of the people involved hear speaks far more than a radio message that can be interpreted a hundred different ways.

In the end, a brilliant Alonso victory, and a coming of age for the young Perez.

FIN
I agree, and thanks JET. There are some classy & objective fans out there that support teams other than Ferrari but aren't afraid to call it how it is, or isn't. You're right, it was simply a warning to be careful & not pull a Maldonado.

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Malaysian GP 2012 - Sepang International Circuit

Post

myurr wrote:Feel free to quote the rules, but instead of quoting your interpretation try quoting the actual rules in full.
For those too lazy to read my previous post I will do the foot work and post the link given in this thread.

viewtopic.php?p=328641#p328641

2012 Sporting regulations §20.5
20.5 As soon as a car is caught by another car which is about to lap it during the race the driver must allow the faster driver past at the first available opportunity. If the driver who has been caught does not allow the faster driver past, waved blue flags will be shown to indicate that he must allow the following driver to overtake.
The sporting regulations are very clear. A driver to be lapped has to allow the other driver past at the first available opportunity. The lapping driver has the explicit right to pass.

Show me the rule that states a blue flag indicates a zone where a driver must dive out of the way for all following cars immediately. Show me the rule where it states that an overtaking car has no duty of car to provide room to a lapped car and can run them as far off line as they see fit. Show me the rule where it states that a driver must instinctively know where a following car is even when he's coming from 100 meters away and is not in the lapped cars mirrors at any point during the manoeuvre.
Just read the rule book and stop making up requests for quotes of rules that you only imagine.
You say he didn't pay attention to his mirrors, show me any point where Vettel was even in his mirrors!
1. I did'nt say that. Do a proper quotation the next time!
2. NK never claimed that he did not see Vettel approaching. That would have been the first excuse every driver would make if he could plausibly make it. So the whole story you are making up is a red herring.
Why can't you see that Vettel should not have been so close in the first place and should have given the lapped car more respect? Why can't you see that Vettel could see NK throughout the entire manoeuvre but that NK could only see Vettel during the last fraction of a second as he drew alongside. He could most probably have heard that he was somewhere there but since when is that enough to choose a driving line?
I told you already that Vettel left enough lateral space. The whole notion of giving more respect to lapped cars is putting the rule on lapping upside down. The leading cars will always be wary of the back markers not seeing them or not being clearly identified vs a competing other back marker, but they need to keep their pace as we have seen Alonso or Hamilton doing before Vettel because they are racing each other. The whole point of §20.5 is that the back markers are not in the race with the leaders. This is why they have the duty to make space for the leaders in order to not destroy the racing experience for the audience. A minute audience cares whether NK comes home before PdlR or vice versa. But the global public wanted to see the world champion attack the other three leaders on a drying track. We have been denied of that spectacle because NK effed up.
Vettel had the better visibility, the better control of the car, and far more room - he should have used that room to make the pass more safely but chose not to. Much of the blame has to lie at his feet because of that.
That is your view which I reject due to the discussed specifics. There was plenty enough lateral separation.
Edit: Also show me the rule where the blue flag applies to more than one car behind. All the definitions of the rules I have just googled quote car in singular form.
This is a bit silly, isn't it. I'm not going into semantics. When a rule talks about a car, every car is meant. So if a second car comes along the rule applies to that car as well.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Giblet
Giblet
5
Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
Location: Canada

Re: Malaysian GP 2012 - Sepang International Circuit

Post

Vettel assumed he left enough room, and NK hit his tire. Vettel left about 1 or 2 feet to, ahem, Narain Karthikeyan, in an HRT, on a damp track.

By leaving room, he would have eliminated him entirely from the equation, but no, he erased his margins of error instead of sacrificing a 10th or 2 on corner exit.

With the way Vettel historically bounces back I won't be surprised if he wins the next race in reverse gear, but he ran himself out of luck in Malaysia.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

User avatar
raymondu999
54
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Malaysian GP 2012 - Sepang International Circuit

Post

Giblet wrote:With the way Vettel historically bounces back I won't be surprised if he wins the next race in reverse gear, but he ran himself out of luck in Malaysia.
Thats interesting. What you say? Despite being the superstitious man I am I haven't noticed any such paracervical bouncing back before
失败者找理由,成功者找方法

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Malaysian GP 2012 - Sepang International Circuit

Post

Giblet wrote:@WB, in response to your entire post, one question.

If Vettel had exercised some caution and left some more room, would we be having this conversation right now?
#-o This question is so obviously loaded, that I'm almost inclined not to answer it.

The onus for caution is primarily placed on the driver to be lapped. The lapping driver is under tremendous pressure by being in a race with the other leaders and he will have to weight up caution against the time he looses in the real race that is on. This is why the sporting regulation puts the onus on the lapped car's driver to yield immediately. The back marker is practically not in the race any more. Once the lapping car is committed at sufficient lateral separation the lapping driver needs to avoid unnecessary steering actions, which Vettel all did and that is undisputed btw.

My motivation for correcting all the faulty opinions voiced in this thread is simple and I tell you my view. I think the anti Vettel brigade is having a field day enjoying his difficulties. They don't care about rules or facts if they can whistle up something to tarnish Seb's reputation.

I think that NK is an inexperienced F1 driver with a very low level of understanding of the sporting rules. He is probably not an idiot, because all the money in the world would not have got him into F1 otherwise. But he behaved like one in this case. He certainly angered millions of fans following this sport by making accusations (of bullying) instead of standing by the mistake he made. In my view the guy has lost all the good will I used to have for him. It will take some impressive driving on his behalves to convince me he is not another useless reject.

The idea that the honourable members of this board know better than the stewards of the race assisted by all video and personal evidence is not convincing. There is no particularly suspicious composition of the stewarding team that would suggest a national bias or other reason to believe in a misjudgement. Jonny Herbert is an ex driver steward with the highest reputation. I have challenged anyone here to give me an example of a stewarding team advised by him making a dodgy decision in the past. Nobody so far has spoken up.

My conclusion: Nahrain effed up and behaved like a driver who does not belong in F1. Calling him an idiot is ok for me if you do it in privacy on your own. I was swearing at him myself after the race. Doing so publicly was a PR mistake by Seb. You may hold it against him but his fans - of which I have been one since 2006 - will not. And this is the end of it unless someone has a substantial input which the last two or three have been not IMO.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Malaysian GP 2012 - Sepang International Circuit

Post

Giblet wrote:Vettel assumed he left enough room, and NK hit his tire. Vettel left about 1 or 2 feet to, ahem, Narain Karthikeyan, in an HRT, on a damp track.

By leaving room, he would have eliminated him entirely from the equation, but no, he erased his margins of error instead of sacrificing a 10th or 2 on corner exit.
I would challenge you to your estimate of 1 or 2 feet. I estimate the gap at 3 feet or 1 meter.

The gap whatever it was in my humble opinion was big enough for Mr Karthikeyan to navigate his car without a collision. And even more relevant a reputed and fairly competent stewarding team saw it the same way.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

chapmanlung
chapmanlung
0
Joined: 17 Feb 2006, 11:27

Re: Malaysian GP 2012 - Sepang International Circuit

Post

I guess Vettel was a blind bat when he hit webber in the back in fuji

Giblet
Giblet
5
Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
Location: Canada

Re: Malaysian GP 2012 - Sepang International Circuit

Post

Even at 1 meter, that is an easy amount for a rear end to swing, on a wet track, in an HRT, that is running its first race distance, driven by Narain Karhikeyan.

Vettel could have left room. 1 foot, 2 foot, 3 foot, all arbitrary numbers. As you have said to me, I am not an F1 driver so I don't know what the right amount is. I do know just 2 days ago I sacrificed 2.5 seconds of a 5 second gap to 2nd place in an online race, just to let an unpredictable backmarker get out of the middle of the road, notice me behind him, and choose a side to commit to.

Coming home in 11 instead of 4th is not arbitrary. He should have left more room, he only needed a few more inches, like the other times he has made spatial mistakes IMO.

You create a lot of your own luck in racing, he has run over wings himself and not had a puncture ruining others races, so I guess it balances out.

Also WB, as for the anti-Vettel brigade, you can look back a couple years and see my opinion of him has not changed. He has planted two seeds since he got in F1. The first was his BMW Fridays where kept setting the fastest time in those sessions. Then he hit DC on a parade lap, planting the second seed of his apparent lack of spatial awareness.

He has watered both those seeds a bunch of times, and my opinion hasn't changed.

I have also said I want him to prove himself when he has adversity and a less than perfect car. So far he has failed that in 2012.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

bill shoe
bill shoe
151
Joined: 19 Nov 2008, 08:18
Location: Dallas, Texas, USA

Re: Malaysian GP 2012 - Sepang International Circuit

Post

I just got a bit more respect for Vettel. RB and Vettel have pretty much stopped pretending there was a radio problem in Vettel's car.

This means Vettel ignored RB orders to do one of those fake mechanical DNF's a few laps from the end so the team could do a free gearbox change before the next race. Vettel simply said he believed every driver should try to get to the finish. Good for him.

Notice Vettel stood up for what he thought was right even though it didn't gain him anything. This is a big contrast with Massa who followed orders to give way to Alonso FOR A WIN!

Vettel was not being mean or ruthless here, but I think he showed a bit of the self confidence and determination that is necessary to be a World Champion.

http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/ ... an-vettel/

mx_tifoso
mx_tifoso
0
Joined: 30 Nov 2006, 05:01
Location: North America

Re: Malaysian GP 2012 - Sepang International Circuit

Post

Yes, he was very brave and risked a DNF. Imagine the irony of his bravery had the engine or gearbox gone up in smoke...
Forum guide: read before posting

"You do it, then it's done." - Kimi Räikkönen

Por las buenas soy amigo, por las malas soy campeón.

User avatar
djos
113
Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Malaysian GP 2012 - Sepang International Circuit

Post

Giblet wrote: Also WB, as for the anti-Vettel brigade, you can look back a couple years and see my opinion of him has not changed. He has planted two seeds since he got in F1. The first was his BMW Fridays where kept setting the fastest time in those sessions. Then he hit DC on a parade lap, planting the second seed of his apparent lack of spatial awareness.

He has watered both those seeds a bunch of times, and my opinion hasn't changed.

I have also said I want him to prove himself when he has adversity and a less than perfect car. So far he has failed that in 2012.
lets not forget him driving into the Back of Webber in Japan while behind the saftey car and Chopping across Webber In Turkey - vettel needs to pay attention to the other cars around him as they arent going to make room for him just because he thinks he's special!
"In downforce we trust"