Is the Aerodynamic dependence in Formula One too high?

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xpensive
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Re: Is the Aerodynamic dependence in Formula One too high?

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Reviewing the fantastic race at Monza in 1971, I doubt if they had aerodynamic downforce at all,
Ronnie's March probably had lift.

So what's right afterall, barn-door wings like in the turbo-era, or today's space-shuttle technology?

I still say flat-bottom and I don't mean for the ladies.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

Reca
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Re: Is the Aerodynamic dependence in Formula One too high?

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Sit down and take a long breath, this is going to be long and could potentially bore you to death...

For a start, let me agree wholeheartedly with what gixxer_drew said couple of pages ago (and I think I already said various years ago on one or more of the multiple threads about the same argument), but that is worth repeating:
as long as we live submerged in that fluid we call air (and for our own sake we should hope it will stay with us a few more years...) the interaction with said fluid will necessarily be the fundamental factor in the performance of any object travelling at F1-like speeds, no matter rules on bodywork geometry, kind of propulsion adopted, budget restriction, whatever.

Thinking that opening up development of other areas would decrease that importance is rather myopic, because it's physics that makes aerodynamics a fundamental factor not rules (same can be said about tyres), even if bodywork was equal for everybody teams would spend countless hours to get the most accurate map and understand how to best use it, via CFD models and/or putting the car itself in the tunnel (GP2, or other single spec lower series with infinitively smaller budgets, teams do it, go figure what F1 would do...)

So, that's first point. If your dream is to see a F1 where aerodynamics isn't important, you better include in that dream also the ability of surviving without breathing.

Then it comes the matter of "evil downforce" and how to reduce it (there's the matter of understanding if it's really the element that prevents "racing" or not, in part I talk about it in the next post, starting from xpensive's quote).

The thing people typically overlook when complaining about the obsession of teams for downforce generation is that the optimal level of downforce designers aim to doesn't depend by bodywork rules, or because there's a lobby of aerodynamicists dictating it.
That level is defined, first of all, by track's characteristics and then by some of cars related characteristics (mainly amount of power available, the more power is available, the higher the optimal downforce level for a given track).

As long as these basic elements, tracks layout and power, are untouched, no amount of playing on bodywork rules is going to change the downforce level teams will want to achieve; if anything further limiting the easy ways to generate downforce will just make teams more eager to recover every little bit as the performance gain from it would be increased. (the more distant you are from optimal downforce level, the higher the performance gain from any small amount added)

This means that, in order to understand, or even control, on which direction of development teams are going to push, it's first of all tracks that we have to look at.

To do that, using the speed data from all tracks (that I obtain via the usual analysis of engine rpm) I devised a rather simple method to judge the importance of few parameters on each track.
Since this post is already quite long for the moment I just show the graph with the results and few comments on how to read it; in a following post (and if you are interested) I can post all the details of how I arrived to it, in a nutshell by calculating the % of time spent in certain speed ranges and separating between corners and straights.

So, this is the graph:
Image

First, red and blue bars. These represent the importance of the part of laptime spent cornering in the corresponding speed range, relatively to part of laptime spent cornering in the range <150km/h. So, if the bar is higher than 1, it means that that speed range is more important than <150, if it's lower it means it's less important.

The green line on the contrary represents the importance of drag reduction, I calculated an arbitrary index (based on % of time spent above >90% of peak speed, peak speed itself and % of time spent in corners), and then divided that index by the value obtained for Spa (not Monza because otherwise value for certain tracks would have disappeared from graph...)

Based on that should be clear that looking at the three values for each track allows to rapidly identify what kind of aero setup is best suited to it.

So, if for example we take Suzuka the fact that both bars for cornering are well over 1 means that both these speed ranges are lot more important than "<150", with medium more important than high.
On the other end of range there's Monaco, already blue is under 0.5, while red is barely visible. The green bar being very low also means that drag reduction gives virtually no gain.

You can repeat the same for all tracks by yourself, but let me just point out couple of things (hoping you are still awake...)
First, even just casually looking at the graph in general, it's evident how in many cases both red and blue bars are under1 (meaning in all these tracks the low speed range is most important), and the red bar in particular is over 1 only in 3 cases out of 19, meaning that high speed corners are a rarity, to say the least.
Additionally, there are some cases of tracks (India for example) that theoretically would have medium/high speed performance rather important compared with low so could appear as favoring lower downforce level more than others, but then the importance of drag reduction is so low that using an high downforce level is ultimately preferable anyway.
And since we are at it, we can also take a look at what kind of characteristics the most recently introduced circuits demand, finding out that virtually all are biased more towards lower speed performance while the tracks that tend to favor an higher speed range are basically only the old/traditional venues.

Is it surprising, based on this result, that teams focus first and foremost on performance at low-medium speed, thus mainly on downforce generation giving scarce, if any, importance to drag reduction?

Maybe this should give an hint on what mostly went wrong in recent years and why none of the many changes on bodywork rules introduced (not rarely as random knee-jerk reactions especially in Mosley's era) was successful in moving the focus of designers away from pure downforce generation and more towards aero efficiency.

Sure, while designing cars teams follow the bodywork rules, but rules define "just" how the downforce target is going to be achieved, the downforce target itself is defined mostly by tracks and if most of calendar the requirement is "all downforce you can make and then a bit more", to improve performance in the low-medium speed range, that's what engineers will work for.
And that independently if the car has flat floor, stepped floor or tunnels, small/big/wide/narrow wings, wing only at front/rear or nowhere, or any other random combination people constantly like to come up with to pretend having a solution to counteract focus on downforce.

As long as tracks are like that, no matter the bodywork rules, teams will work night and day to find a way (legal or "creative"...) to generate if not all downforce needed, at least as much as possible, because that's the primary key for performance with these layouts.

Reca
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Re: Is the Aerodynamic dependence in Formula One too high?

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xpensive wrote: I'd rather consider a Ferrari racing a BRM at Monza with what was effectively an aerodynamic lift, gaawd how they slipstreamed.
[...]
Reviewing the fantastic race at Monza in 1971, I doubt if they had aerodynamic downforce at all,
Ronnie's March probably had lift.
The reason the cars in early 70s slipstreamed so well had little to do with downforce (or lack of it), it was because their engines had "just" 450-500hp, thus their drag limited speed would be lot lower than nowadays and reached earlier on straight (also, most of tracks back then would favor slipstreaming way more than today's).

Nowadays the cars have so much power, especially at medium speed courtesy of KERS, that can accelerate at insane rate, and keep very high acceleration till much higher speed.
That means the gap between cars grows naturally lot more well before drag can become a limiting factor (which obviously is necessary for drag reduction in the wake to be a real help); when that finally happens the cars are so far apart that impact of wake, thus speed gain for chasing car is minimal and closing the gap takes ages.
It's as result of that that slipstreaming is naturally scarcely effective nowadays, nothing to do with downforce level and/or loss of it in the wake; excess of power available causes that, coupled with an amount of drag that isn't particularly high (even if people like to think otherwise).

If current cars had same power level as in early '70s (better, a bit less to compensate for the much higher efficiency, aero and drivetrain, and different tracks) they would have same potential to slipstream as back in these years.
Problem is we live in a different world now. When even some "cheap" citycars can exceed 200hp, a F1 with less power than an M3 is not going to be acceptable for marketing reasons, it needs 750-800 minimum, and with similar power level slipstreaming in utopia.

DRS is mainly meant as a fix for that, opening the flap even if the gap is too large for wake to be really felt, drag drops anyway allowing an adequate speed increment (the correct gearing it favors also helps...).
Is it artificial? Sure, because, unable to do what is needed to enhance importance of slipstreaming "naturally", next best thing is to do it artificially.
In that sense, with all its shortcomings and need to be better tuned (especially in some tracks), at least mere existence of DRS is a very good signal as it shows that finally, after years of messing with random modifications achieving nothing (if not making things worse) FIA/teams understood what is the real factor it's necessary to play on.
ringo wrote: Slapping on skirts to the current floors, is actually a draw back. The car needs tunnels. Flow by the rear wheel is an issue with the current flat floor with skirts.
[...]
funny enough i have repeated the tests. Skirts on the current car dont work.
Toyota added skirts to the Tf109 to increase downforce closer to 2011's level as needed for Pirelli testing:
Image

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Is the Aerodynamic dependence in Formula One too high?

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@Reca

=D> =D> =D>

Nice analysis! But what would happen if the teams and the FiA would finally limit the downforce by rule and not by trying different configurations?

I have little doubt that with current electronics and advanced sensors a real time computation of the total downforce is possible.

It should be possible to regulate the available power by adapting the fuel consumption rule in the future. If you also enforce a legal downforce level you can limit aerodynamic activities to drag reduction.

This is IMO the best incentive to put aerodynamics back to where they belong. At the same time the available money could be used to greater advantage to improve the drive train and chassis efficiency and the performance contributions from clever suspension solutions.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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flynfrog
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Re: Is the Aerodynamic dependence in Formula One too high?

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WhiteBlue wrote:@Reca

=D> =D> =D>

Nice analysis! But what would happen if the teams and the FiA would finally limit the downforce by rule and not by trying different configurations?

I have little doubt that with current electronics and advanced sensors a real time computation of the total downforce is possible.

It should be possible to regulate the available power by adapting the fuel consumption rule in the future. If you also enforce a legal downforce level you can limit aerodynamic activities to drag reduction.

This is IMO the best incentive to put aerodynamics back to where they belong. At the same time the available money could be used to greater advantage to improve the drive train and chassis efficiency and the performance contributions from clever suspension solutions.

teams already focus most of the aero budget on drag reduction. its easy to make downforce its hard to make it without drag. I would prefer to see a much simpler body rule. something like the car must fit in a box this size. Down force is limited by engine power the same ends could be reached through opening up the aero and engine regs as opposed to specify exactly how teams should focus there money on things you like. With the fuel limit teams will be motivated to make more power per fuel unit even if it is only to put on slightly more wing. Each component of the car is part of the system the engine chassis wings do not exist in a vacuum from one another.

Currently you basically have a spec engine class and spec tub for the most part. That doesn't leave much else to gain speed other than aero and suspension. If you remember before the engine freeze and spec tire we used to talk about things other than wings and diffusers.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Is the Aerodynamic dependence in Formula One too high?

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flynfrog wrote:...teams already focus most of the aero budget on drag reduction. its easy to make downforce its hard to make it without drag.
Sorry, but Seca's analysis seems to contradict your thesis. Because they are doing the work on changing configurations it has to be done over and over again. You have evaded my question how the situation would change if downforce was limited and more freedom was given in the rules.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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flynfrog
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Re: Is the Aerodynamic dependence in Formula One too high?

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WhiteBlue wrote:
flynfrog wrote:...teams already focus most of the aero budget on drag reduction. its easy to make downforce its hard to make it without drag.
Sorry, but Seca's analysis seems to contradict your thesis. Because they are doing the work on changing configurations it has to be done over and over again. You have evaded my question how the situation would change if downforce was limited and more freedom was given in the rules.
I feel my argument is not contradictory at all to reca the wings are part of a system lower the power you lower the DF.

If you limit downforce teams will still be doing for the most part the exact same as they are doing now. Trying to create low drag downforce. This still costs just as much money because that is exactly what they are doing now. Your rule will just set one of the variables in the optimization.

What you really want to see WB is a spec racing body then you could have all the other development you want.
Last edited by flynfrog on 19 Jan 2012, 23:07, edited 1 time in total.

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flynfrog
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Re: Is the Aerodynamic dependence in Formula One too high?

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to clarify WB instead of seeing a team setup for low drag fast strains slow corners VS a car running high drag for corning speed slow on the straits both cars will be the same.

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flynfrog
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Re: Is the Aerodynamic dependence in Formula One too high?

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there is a pretty good article in RE about drag reduction
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/arti ... top-speed/

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Is the Aerodynamic dependence in Formula One too high?

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flynfrog wrote:What you really want to see WB is a spec racing body....
No, that isn't at all what I want. I want stability of the aero rules with a much reduced set of restrictions. That set of rules has to be valid for a target time of 10 years and the downforce is restricted per circuit.

We would see an optimization of the aero designs to that set of rules and very quickly the law of diminishing returns would set in. As it stands today the legal aero config changes almost every year and the optimization is run over and over again. By the two simple measures of limiting downforce and aero rule changes money could be freed up for more interesting developments of the drive train and the suspension.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

xpensive
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Re: Is the Aerodynamic dependence in Formula One too high?

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WhiteBlue wrote: Sorry, but Seca's analysis seems to contradict your thesis.
...
And what made this analysis the truth of the day, perhaps you subscribe to it but that doesn't give you the right to patronize on other people's opinions? I don't agree with Reca, but I respect another position, you should try that WB.
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flynfrog
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Re: Is the Aerodynamic dependence in Formula One too high?

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WhiteBlue wrote: No, that isn't at all what I want. I want stability of the aero rules with a much reduced set of restrictions. That set of rules has to be valid for a target time of 10 years and the downforce is restricted per circuit.

We would see an optimization of the aero designs to that set of rules and very quickly the law of diminishing returns would set in. As it stands today the legal aero config changes almost every year and the optimization is run over and over again. By the two simple measures of limiting downforce and aero rule changes money could be freed up for more interesting developments of the drive train and the suspension.
I disagree the teams already build to reduce drag limiting the DF to a particular circuit will not have any affect on cost. Why not just a 10 year rule freeze wouldn't the end result be the same yet still allow teams to build different cars? Who says drive train and suspensions are more interesting than aero?

bhall
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Re: Is the Aerodynamic dependence in Formula One too high?

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And ten years is far too long for anything in F1 to remain stagnant.

At this point, engine development seems like ancient history even though it's "only" been six years since those specs were frozen. I'd hate to see that happen with aero, too.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Is the Aerodynamic dependence in Formula One too high?

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xpensive wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote: Sorry, but Seca's analysis seems to contradict your thesis.
...
And what made this analysis the truth of the day, perhaps you subscribe to it but that doesn't give you the right to patronize on other people's opinions? I don't agree with Reca, but I respect another position, you should try that WB.
That wasn't meant to be patronizing, and I don't intend to discuss personal issues any further in this thread. So if flynfrog feels patronized he can say so and I will apologize. I just happen to disagree with him.
flynfrog wrote: Why not just a 10 year rule freeze wouldn't the end result be the same yet still allow teams to build different cars? Who says drive train and suspensions are more interesting than aero?
1. Question: Yeah a 10 year rule freeze would have some of the desired effects but not all. In particular I don't believe that they will be able to not touch the aero rules that long if the race for downforce continues. You also disregard the other part of my proposal, that rules should be less restrictive. If designers have more choices to play with like tunnels, double diffusors, front and rear wing elements and dimensions we would possibly see different schools of thought. Constant downforce does not mean that the cars would look uniform. I actually think quite the opposite is true.

2. Question: Naturally that is a question of opinion. I know you work in the aero industry and you are a big fan of aero. I have a different set of values and I believe that it would benefit F1 more to pick one set of performance, downforce and aero rules and focus all the money on improving the efficiency of the engine, the energy recovery and the chassis. That way we can still have a development race in many different disciplines and it would be interesting for many fans with different technical back ground.

I mean this is basically the issue of the thread. Showing ways of making F1 tech more interesting. I believe that my proposal would do this.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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Re: Is the Aerodynamic dependence in Formula One too high?

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Sorry but I need to post this... lets see who gets it! :D

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