FRIC Could Be Banned As Soon As Germany

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basti313
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Re: FRIC Could Be Banned As Soon As Germany

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kooleracer wrote:Its really easy to figure out who is behind this.
I still do not get why you still make these wrong assumptions. McLaren clearly said, that they are not behind this and the source that brought it up also said it is an idea of the FIA. So why all these conspiracy theories based on nothing?
It was the only logical thing from the beginning a few years ago to ban these complicated, expensive interconnected systems. Charlie only needed some time to figure that out.

Who will vote against the delay is also quite clear. This is McLaren and I suspect also FI to vote against it as Vijay is clearly not the man who is thankful to anyone.
bhall II wrote:
basti123 wrote:No, that makes no sense at all. The FRIC ban may be delayed until next season, but there is no way to get 18 inch wheels for next season.
Really? I could have sworn I saw four on the Lotus today.
Pirelli clearly said, that there is no chance of bringing them in the near future as there is still nearly no development done. The tires tested today were only to test the optics, they had the performance of the demo tire.
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FW17
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Re: FRIC Could Be Banned As Soon As Germany

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basti313 wrote: they had the performance of the demo tire.

Pirelli race tyres have the performance of Michelin and Bridgestone demo tyres :lol:

bhall II
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Re: FRIC Could Be Banned As Soon As Germany

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basti313 wrote:Pirelli clearly said, that there is no chance of bringing them in the near future as there is still nearly no development done. The tires tested today were only to test the optics, they had the performance of the demo tire.
I struggle to see how that would result in anything different from the rest of the bullshit rubber they've thrust upon the sport over the last three years. :lol:

Again, it's just a thought.

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turbof1
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Re: FRIC Could Be Banned As Soon As Germany

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basti313 wrote: Pirelli clearly said, that there is no chance of bringing them in the near future as there is still nearly no development done. The tires tested today were only to test the optics, they had the performance of the demo tire.
Pirelli said they could introduce them as early as 2016:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114894
That's what Pirelli clearly said, and that's pretty near future.

If the FIA wants, we'll have 18 inch tires in 2016, whether or not teams are ready.
#AeroFrodo

basti313
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Re: FRIC Could Be Banned As Soon As Germany

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turbof1 wrote:
basti313 wrote: Pirelli clearly said, that there is no chance of bringing them in the near future as there is still nearly no development done. The tires tested today were only to test the optics, they had the performance of the demo tire.
Pirelli said they could introduce them as early as 2016:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114894
That's what Pirelli clearly said, and that's pretty near future.

If the FIA wants, we'll have 18 inch tires in 2016, whether or not teams are ready.
So what was the discussion again? Do we really have to argue about "near future" if it is still after the change of the suspension?
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turbof1
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Re: FRIC Could Be Banned As Soon As Germany

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basti313 wrote:
turbof1 wrote:
basti313 wrote: Pirelli clearly said, that there is no chance of bringing them in the near future as there is still nearly no development done. The tires tested today were only to test the optics, they had the performance of the demo tire.
Pirelli said they could introduce them as early as 2016:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114894
That's what Pirelli clearly said, and that's pretty near future.

If the FIA wants, we'll have 18 inch tires in 2016, whether or not teams are ready.
So what was the discussion again? Do we really have to argue about "near future" if it is still after the change of the suspension?
Yes because it still makes Bhall's argument of the FIA trying to ram those tyres through, a valid one.

With FRIC, teams will need to invest for years again to reconfigure it properly to the new tyres. We've seen Lotus trying out new tyres, with Pirelli suddenly stating they could introduce those tyres in 2016. Things seem to go suspiciously fast all of a sudden.

It's impossible for next year since that requires unanimous support from all teams. But then again, how are they going to ban FRIC?

Wait what, is turbof1 questioning if the FIA really bans FRIC in 2015? Fo' sure he does. FRIC is a very broad concept and part of the suspension; banning extreme forms with article 3.15 will be possible, but as long as it can be shown it doesn't affect ride height it's still very legal, as legal infact as "brake ducts". And wait, didn't we had a meeting last month discussing 2015 rules? The FIA proposed to ban it through new regulations. It got whiped off the table.

The earliest we can get a full-on ban in FRIC, is in 2016.
#AeroFrodo

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SectorOne
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Re: FRIC Could Be Banned As Soon As Germany

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Are there any advantages/disadvantages from running that configuration? Or is it purely for Pirelli PR?
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Re: FRIC Could Be Banned As Soon As Germany

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n smikle wrote:
Cam wrote:Beautiful. Why would any team not vote that down. A massive change like this could level the field, what do you have to loose - unless you're Mercedes. I'd theorise someone has been sitting on this for a while, just waiting to play the card if they weren't performing. With Merc clearly 2 seconds a lap faster - what else can the teams do?

Remember, when you can't find performance on the track, you can find it in the court rooms - by hobbling others. :lol:
Yes, I also think it is more than hobbling. I think this is a ploy by Ferrari or Redbull to try to single out in the most legal, way (without having to spy) where Mercedes is getting their speed from and doing that by starting with their suspension. It's is a devious but very clever move. Imagine the FRICS banned in Germany and Mercedes are back down to earth running 2 tenths slower than the RedBulls! Horner would be like: AHA! that's where you silver livered crooks get your 2 seconds a lap!
However if Mercedes are still 2 seconds in front even without FRICS then good, Ferrari and RedBull will have gotten their answer will just have to keep on their long arduous journeys working on their retarded engines.
Can someone clear up a point for me? Was it necessary for a team or teams to have protested? I thought Whiting had taken the action unilaterally.
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donskar
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Re: FRIC Could Be Banned As Soon As Germany

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MOWOG wrote:
It's done to maintain the title races as long as possible so that the circuits / TV companies at the tail end of the season have a chance of hosting the deciding race. That's why Bernie's double points nonsense was introduced.

Mercedes have done too good a job this year so the FIA, on behalf of Bernie and the money men, are going to "clarify the rules". All that matters is the money men and their "show". F1will be lucky to keep the likes of Mercedes in the sport if they keep this up. No manufacturer is going to spend 100million and then have that thrown away for the " show".
Probably as good an explanation as I have seen. Watching Formula One has become equivalent to watching a shell game. We know its rigged. We know we are being fleeced. And yet we continue to watch, unwilling to believe what we are seeing is true. :cry:

The future was foretold last weekend. While the mechanics fiddled with damaged Armco, most of the viewing audience switched over to World Cup or Wimbledon, reducing the TV audience in England to the lowest point since 2006.

The chickens WILL come home to roost one day and we will wake to find we have been watching nothing but a shell game all these years. While the money men are busy squeezing every last shekel out of the still credulous television networks, they are strangling the sport we love.

By the time this all plays out, there will be nothing left but the carcass of Formula One. And maybe that's a good thing. Maybe then a new series will arise, Phoenix like, from the ashes, one that focuses on RACING instead of GREED.

That's the hope, anyway. :roll:
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donskar
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Re: FRIC Could Be Banned As Soon As Germany

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Tim.Wright wrote:
WaikeCU wrote:
matt21 wrote:
the first of this systems was run back in 94. I don´t know of road cars using such systems this early.
Mclaren MP4-12c?
The McLaren systrm doesn't link front to rear as far as I know.

Citroen did it in the 40s on the 2CV, BMC did it in the 60s (hydrolastic suspension). More recently Citroen had the Tenneco system on their rally cars back when it was still called Kinetic Suspension and I believe (though not completely sure) that Toyota had it on the Landcruiser relatively recently too.

Interconnected suspensions are nothing new
Toyota has had it for several years on 4Runner and LandCruiser.
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basti313
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Re: FRIC Could Be Banned As Soon As Germany

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turbof1 wrote:
basti313 wrote:
turbof1 wrote:
Pirelli said they could introduce them as early as 2016:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114894
That's what Pirelli clearly said, and that's pretty near future.

If the FIA wants, we'll have 18 inch tires in 2016, whether or not teams are ready.
So what was the discussion again? Do we really have to argue about "near future" if it is still after the change of the suspension?
Yes because it still makes Bhall's argument of the FIA trying to ram those tyres through, a valid one.
Well, this is only based on a delay of the ban until 2016. There is just no hint at all, that the ban will be delayed until then.
turbof1 wrote: Wait what, is turbof1 questioning if the FIA really bans FRIC in 2015? Fo' sure he does. FRIC is a very broad concept and part of the suspension; banning extreme forms with article 3.15 will be possible, but as long as it can be shown it doesn't affect ride height it's still very legal, as legal infact as "brake ducts".
...
The earliest we can get a full-on ban in FRIC, is in 2016.
The letter from Charlie (Boullier calls it a technical directive) states, that every sort of interconnection is forbidden by the current rules. There is nothing why it could take until 2016:
"Failing this, we would have to consider making a report to the stewards about the non-compliance of any car fitted with a system which appears to allow the response of the suspension at either or both of the rear corners to drive the response of the suspension at either or both of the front corners (or vice versa)."
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beelsebob
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Re: FRIC Could Be Banned As Soon As Germany

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basti313 wrote:The letter from Charlie (Boullier calls it a technical directive) states, that every sort of interconnection is forbidden by the current rules. There is nothing why it could take until 2016:
"Failing this, we would have to consider making a report to the stewards about the non-compliance of any car fitted with a system which appears to allow the response of the suspension at either or both of the rear corners to drive the response of the suspension at either or both of the front corners (or vice versa)."
So he is literally saying that anti-roll bars are illegal then.

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Pierce89
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Re: FRIC Could Be Banned As Soon As Germany

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donskar wrote:
Toyota has had it for several years on 4Runner and LandCruiser.
Oh yes, I had a 2003 4 runner v8 and it handled as well as the supposed "sport suv's", while having the off road ability of a mountain goat. The x-reas suspension was truly magical.
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basti313
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Re: FRIC Could Be Banned As Soon As Germany

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beelsebob wrote:
basti313 wrote:The letter from Charlie (Boullier calls it a technical directive) states, that every sort of interconnection is forbidden by the current rules. There is nothing why it could take until 2016:
"Failing this, we would have to consider making a report to the stewards about the non-compliance of any car fitted with a system which appears to allow the response of the suspension at either or both of the rear corners to drive the response of the suspension at either or both of the front corners (or vice versa)."
So he is literally saying that anti-roll bars are illegal then.
:?: No...front-rear connection. Anti-roll bars do not connect front and rear...
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turbof1
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Re: FRIC Could Be Banned As Soon As Germany

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Well, this is only based on a delay of the ban until 2016. There is just no hint at all, that the ban will be delayed until then.
No based on 2015 (which I deem unlikely). Still doesn't put away Bhall's argument in any way.
The letter from Charlie (Boullier calls it a technical directive) states, that every sort of interconnection is forbidden by the current rules. There is nothing why it could take until 2016:
"Failing this, we would have to consider making a report to the stewards about the non-compliance of any car fitted with a system which appears to allow the response of the suspension at either or both of the rear corners to drive the response of the suspension at either or both of the front corners (or vice versa)."
There's nothing in the current written regulations that forbids interconnected suspension, nor there will be in 2015. That's a fact.

A technical directive still needs a very specific connection to a specific ruling. For instance we had the debacles with how the fuel flow would be measured at the start of this year, and last year we also had a technical directive that excluded a coanda exhaust solution from Williams. Both were directives acted properly in that regard, acting as clarifications of existing ruling.

However, you can't ban a system like fric based on a technical directive. To what are you going to couple it to? 3.15 only acts when it goes about moveable aerodynamics; interconnection on itself does not mean that. To ban interconnection you need a new regulation, and that's not until 2016.

Like beelsebob said, this would in turn ban anti-roll bars. That's insanity.

Also, this is what Bouiller says:
"I think most of the teams, if not all the teams on the grid, are using this kind of suspension system, which connects the vehicle dynamics better.

"Some teams may have been extreme [with their FRIC design], this is maybe why the FIA is questioning the legality of the system."
I feel the FIA can at best reduce it to "better vehicle dynamics". An ungrounded "technical directive" or a bit of treatening from the FIA still doesn't change the fact they can't enforce it properly.
:?: No...front-rear connection. Anti-roll bars do not connect front and rear...
This is what you said and I quote:
that every sort of interconnection is forbidden by the current rules.
Beelsebob's argument is valid, too. Anti-roll bars fall under "every sort of interconnection". So either you misquoted, Bouillier misquoted or we have large hiat in this supposed-to-be TD.

If any of the teams feels they are being played with, and have the courage to take it to the FIA court of appeal, the FIA will not be able to refer to any regulation that bans interconnection.
#AeroFrodo