Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

[mclaren111]

Renault has admitted to making a backwards step with its 2015 engine and its managing director Cyril Abiteboul says his outfit needs to get back to some "basic common sense" to solve its issues.
Read more at http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/stor ... hWvXkXw.99

Horner must stop complaining and work with them to solve their problems

[Jolle]

I'm amazed by the arrogance of RedBullRacing. Now they are threatening to leave F1. For a young and progressive brand they are pretty conservative (we want the old rules back...)

They are openly complaining about their engine partner, being winy small children that their car isn't fast enough... Part of the problem is that for the 2014 car they started very late, investig everything in the 2013 car to win that championship while especially Mercedes were already busy with the W05.

In F1 there is a dominant piece of technology for every era. In the early 80 it was having the best Turbo, in the 90ies having the best electronics and in the early 2010's the most clever defuser. And now, it's about having the best software it seems (together with a all round good design)

RedBull: do your homework or go back to sponsoring. That way you can pick the winner every time. This is Formula one, winning comes and goes, teams come and go.

[FoxHound]

Seems Horner and Marko's chat with Bernie paid off....

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/ ... nnel=11563

I wonder, when Mercedes and Ferrari were having their posteriors handed to them by Red Bull from 2010 to 2013, was there ever such an outcry regarding Mercedes and Ferrari's inability to develop Aero to Red Bull's standard?
Or the fact that they could not develop their engines to overcome this disadvantage?
Or the fact that Red Bull had aimed for the testing ban regs with their state of the art CFD and simulators?

There certainly was a motion within the paddock to see if Red Bull were honoring the RRA, due to some...er...discrepancies.
http://www.f1zone.net/news/audit-shows- ... dget/9018/

Now the shoe is on the other foot, and it's an "unfair advantage".

There will be turmoil in F1 should Red Bull get their way. Precedent will be set, potential engine manufacturers will be turned off by it, and there could be a real risk of losing Mercedes and possibly more.

[Juzh]

I wonder, when Mercedes and Ferrari were having their posteriors handed to them by Red Bull from 2010 to 2013, was there ever such an outcry regarding Mercedes and Ferrari's inability to develop Aero to Red Bull's standard?

They couldn't, because their demise was of their own doing. Unlike RBs, which is mainly down to renault.

[FoxHound]

They couldn't, because their demise was of their own doing. Unlike RBs, which is mainly down to renault.

So every customer team can hold F1 to ransom, Juzh?

Is it F1's fault that Red Bull don't make their own engines?

And how is another teams advantage, another teams doing?

[stuartpengs]

Why does Horner keep suggesting flexible bodywork was banned in an effort to rein them in? Is his view of the world so distorted that he doesn't realise it has always been banned, only their ability to cheat (along with other teams) was reined in. Christ, he's even admitting their ability to cheat and get away with it was removed!

F1 shouldn't be 'equalised' to the lowest common denominator. No matter how much they gripe and moan, it simply doesn't stack-up when you consider there are other teams in worse state than Red Bull, and we don't hear Horner suggesting Red Bull should also be 'equalised' so the lower teams can also be competitive. Oh no, it should only go as far as allowing RB to become more competitive. And the big difference between today when Mercedes dominate, and the days when Red Bull did, at least the two drivers at Mercedes are allowed to race to the flag, when RB couldn't give a stuff about racing fans.

Man, they make me cross!

[iotar__]

I wonder, when Mercedes and Ferrari were having their posteriors handed to them by Red Bull from 2010 to 2013, was there ever such an outcry regarding Mercedes and Ferrari's inability to develop Aero to Red Bull's standard?

They couldn't, because their demise was of their own doing. Unlike RBs, which is mainly down to renault.

Not entirely:
- change of engine rules did give more advantage to full manufacturers but various levels of competitiveness of engines are normal and not different to any other part, not enough reason to expect them to change rules just because they're struggling, it's not Lotus' fault that Renault focused on Red Bull and neglected them after RB forced it, why not "equalise" that in the first place?
- they had blown diffuser, engine mapping, fuel advantage with Renault not to mention pre 2012 farce with coanda effect, banned but not really, why didn't they cry about equalisation then?
- they weren't 100% in control but could have planned engine revolution better, their special Renault deal could have been constructed better as changes after 2014 showed, they have no excuses for that

[turbof1]

Why does Horner keep suggesting flexible bodywork was banned in an effort to rein them in? Is his view of the world so distorted that he doesn't realise it has always been banned, only their ability to cheat (along with other teams) was reined in. Christ, he's even admitting their ability to cheat and get away with it was removed!

He also said the ban of the double diffuser was a move to limit RBR's dominance. Anybody who has a bit of knowledge about the double diffuser knows that is bogus, of course. The double diffuser was not thought up by red bull, and they always compromised on the concept by running pull rod instead of push rod, unlike the other teams. Meaning that the ban was actually in their favour.

Horner just trying to create a public upstir.

IMO, instead of the old tiring call to limit the front runner, why not just give the one being behind a chance to catch up? Give them dispensation for more tokens. There should be a rule: if you are on average x% behind the top manufacturer, you'll receive extra tokens for the next seaso, giving them the chance to catch up. But please, neither do the homework of the lazy kid on the block in order to have make things more equal.

[Jolle]

Ferrari, Williams, McLaren and Lotus(Benneton/Renault) all had their moments of glory and moments where it all fell apart, get used to it RedBull, if you want to be a big boy, this is how the game is played.

And indeed flex wings, blown difusers, putting all the bolts on the front so you can run the plank on the floor, the wing "adjuster" from last year.. thats not entirely fair play

Guess they are asking for rules so they can flex them.

[bdr529]

Seems Horner and Marko's chat with Bernie paid off....

It pays to talk to Bernie, and it doesn't hurt that you own 2 teams, and talk of them leaving is not good for PR
even though it's just posturing, with all that is going on in F1 right now this doesn't help much.
Look at where their were just 10 years ago 7th overall in the championship, they just might end up there this year
their definitely having a tuff time swallowing it
say "Bernie paid off" 3 times fast, it sounds like Bernie Madoff

[knabbel]

Dont get me wrong, I really take my hat of for Mercedes, their engine is great, and their car is too. But there is of course a difference with for example a double diffuser. When one team came up with it, all other teams could copy it and within a few races all teams had them.

With the better engine, Ferrari, Renault and Honda can not redesign the engine, so other teams can't close the gap to Mercedes

[Moose]

Dont get me wrong, I really take my hat of for Mercedes, their engine is great, and their car is too. But there is of course a difference with for example a double diffuser. When one team came up with it, all other teams could copy it and within a few races all teams had them.

How about the exhaust blown diffuser, which RedBull held as a huge advantage, that other teams could not copy, because of their engine design.

With the better engine, Ferrari, Renault and Honda can not redesign the engine, so other teams can't close the gap to Mercedes

Except
1) Renault can make changes to their engine. Improving the reliability is free in terms of tokens, and they have tokens to improve their performance.
2) Ferrari have already managed to produce an engine as good as Mercedes.

In fact, RedBull/Renault can do much more to develop their car/engine now than the teams with a Mercedes engine and a crappy EBD could do back then.

[H2H]

They couldn't, because their demise was of their own doing. Unlike RBs, which is mainly down to renault.

This is in short the big problem for all the teams not having the Mercedes engine or have at least the ability to tackle the problem themselves like Ferrari. While the Scuderia produced also a clearly inferior PU they could work on their own, with their ressources, to straighten out their problems. When your partner does promise and promise but fails and fails you have limited options at hand to solve the problem by your own hard work. What possibilities does RBR have to become competitive:

a) Help Renault and hope they solve their big internal problems as RBR can't do it for them. Hope may be the last to die but relying on it doesn't win you F1 races and championships...
b) Partnering up with a engine manufacturer, ideally financially potent, eager to enter the sport. Not much choice there right now, perhaps even less since we saw how comitted Honda is struggeling.
c) Ask McLaren if they can be part of the Honda experiment which doesn't exactly look like it could challenge the Mercedes PU.
d) Try to get the Ferrari PU, the very same of course which Ferrari is running with...
f) Have a chat about Mercedes if they might get the Mercedes package...

In addition to the inability to solve the problem directly themselves even if, (very big if) Renault is able to get their engineering act together the development restrictions about the PU effectively strongly support the status quo.

Bernie's response in that article might indicate that like so often in F1 something might get done about it.

P.S:

1) So far I have read nothing to suggest that Ferrari's PU is as good as the Mercedes one. In fact nothing about it that it is even close.

2) Almost all the teams and power packs used EBD with engine mapping which got heavily curtailed quickly. It is actually funny that RBR got superior not because of their weaker Renault engine but due to using it's wasted energy with superior aereo...

[kaepernickus]

I wonder, when Mercedes and Ferrari were having their posteriors handed to them by Red Bull from 2010 to 2013, was there ever such an outcry regarding Mercedes and Ferrari's inability to develop Aero to Red Bull's standard?

People always do forget things so quickly.
There were plenty of discussions about aero rules during this time and in quite a few cases where RBR's aero got cut down mid-season because Ferrari, Mercedes , ... complained about RBR's aero package.

I'm not defending the kind of statements Horner issued. I really dislike these political games in F1, but it's not like RB has done something no one has ever done before.

Ferrari has done this since forever using their "Without Ferrari there's no F1" argument whenever they want something done or changed and Mercedes have more than once stated (during their bitter first years) that they might leave F1 if they're not successful within a short time.

So those threats are nothing new when big teams can't catch their opponents on their own.

[charlex]

1) So far I have read nothing to suggest that Ferrari's PU is as good as the Mercedes one. In fact nothing about it that it is even close.

Nasr in 5th position with chassis almost the same as 2014 season is not enough?