Opinion on 2022 regulations

[chrisc90]

A test run with the old 13” tyres would be interesting to see, but given the new brakes etc it’s not going to happen.

Softer side wall with more flex might bring other issues too

[DChemTech]

Nope, you can’t use that excuse.
This is "fans" saying they can’t change the regs even for safety, I say why not, when we’ve had to put up with it through the past years when it was not even a safety measure.

If the rules are impacting drivers health then it needs to change and no hypocrisy from fans should stand in the way.

They can change the regs for safety. But in this case, no reg change is needed. There is a solution within the regs, which MB is fully free to apply if they care about their drivers health.

Lets be real here, you saying "no reg change is needed,There is a solution within the regs", is something you've just pulled out of arse, as you have no idea if true or not, some have bouncing with higher ride hight, and even if it works, so... you want a formula, where you want competitiors hobbling.

And lets be more honest here, people are willing and happy with dangerous cars and driver injuries if the victim is Merc, even when again and again they ignore it is majority of the grid with issues, they just fixate on Merc, even ignore that it is something like 18/20 drivers that are now raising the issue. They even ignore previous rule changes and pretend they didn't happen.

People moaned again and again about restrictions during 2014 and yet we now have more restrictions then ever with budget cap and development time and suddenly people are happy with it.

Wow, those previous years really must have eaten people up inside. F1 fans are strange people where they actually gleefully desiring dangerous cars and driver injuries.

I'm not pulling anything out of my ass. It's completely obvious the other teams are not suffering from porpoising to a degree where it is actually unsafe. This is not a general safety problem that would mandate a general rule-change, it's a Mercedes problem that is on Mercedes to solve. And for which there are means within the rules, by design or by by tuning. Why should the rest of the pack be penalized for Mercedes not having their design in order? I get it it sucks for you as a fan of the team, but there's no rule stating that Mercedes should always be a front-runner. And for safety, no rule-change restricting any particular geometry is required. All that is needed is a rule that limits the maximum rate of porpoising - up to the teams to figure out how to live up to it.

And nobody is ignoring previous rule changes and pretending they didn't happen. If you read my previous posts, I have actually said that I am opposed to mid-season rule changes in general. I don't like the fact that party modes were removed, it was a mistake to do so in my view. FRIC - I don't know enough about, but others have stated it was not a rule change, it was just deemed illegal within the given rules. So that's another matter. And DAS was not banned in-season, so again, other matter.

But then still; that undefensable rule changes were made mid-season in the past (which have harmed other teams than MB - including Red Bull - so don't pretend it's some anti-MB sentiment), that should not be regarded as a reason to make undefensable mid-season rule changes now. Past mistakes should not be used as a vindication for present ones; there is no obligation to 'balance out' past mistakes with new ones.

[Ryar]

And lets be more honest here, people are willing and happy with dangerous cars and driver injuries if the victim is Merc, even when again and again they ignore it is majority of the grid with issues, they just fixate on Merc, even ignore that it is something like 18/20 drivers that are now raising the issue. They even ignore previous rule changes and pretend they didn't happen.

All teams have to agree it's a safety issue, but teams feel it's an issue with Mercedes and not with their cars. So the argument can't stand the test.

[dave kumar]

The Fia should put a sensor in the car to measure popoising. Is it too violent, the car has to be raised. Individualized solution that keeps the driver safe and doesnt affect cars that were developed according to the rules and have no porpoising issue.

What FIA could do to ensure safety is to enforce a maximum porpoising limit, e.g. some maximum vertical acceleration. That -would- be the same for all teams, and ensure safety. It would mean that some teams may be forced to increase ride height and sacrifice performance. But that's a fair sacrifice to make to ensure safety.

This is a very good suggestion, rather than mandating ride height.

I agree, in my field of work we are measuring and assessing whole body vibrations, which are regulated by (EU) labor laws. Since a driver is in working conditions I even would assume some limits already are in place. For instance in standard ISO 2631-1 you'll find a methodology for wheighted accelerations to limit the impact on whole body vibrations.

Well, I guess this is not achievable nor relevant in a race car. According to labor laws no one can sit his employees in a prototype race car.

But I think the route is still correct. Mandate a maximum g-force that can be reached more than one time on a straight on the normal racing line. The g sensor is already in the car. Like this one avoids the issue of adding new sensors and one limits the rule to the relevant part. The car can bottom out on a single bump, but not multiple times or it can bottom when overtaking, this needs to be relaxed accordingly.

This is from the race thread but it is the best suggestion IMO. The FIA should not be mandating solutions, it should be setting regulations and teams need to find solutions that meet those regs.

For safety there are crash tests set by the FIA but the teams must design something to pass the test. Similarly the FIA could set a maximum vertical acceleration (over some duration, etc), that can be experienced by a driver and then the teams have to meet those standards - if they believe this is a safety issue (and I'm not qualified to make that decision for sure). The teams that have a done a good job controlling porpoising or bottoming out, will likely not have to make any changes to meet these standards. Other teams may have to make changes but they can choose how to solve the problem, simply by raising the ride height or they can spend some of their budget by exploring other means to achieve this. This is fair to all teams and protects the drivers.

[edited for typo]

[hollus]

Why is there like a whole page of hidden/missing posts on the previous page? Got post from the 5th June, then jumps to the 11th June with a post from 03.26AM with a whole load of quoted posts from the 10th June.

Whats going on?

Someone made selective quoting on the 11th, from the 10th, but form another thread:
viewtopic.php?p=1066198#p1066198

That's all.

[chrisc90]

Why is there like a whole page of hidden/missing posts on the previous page? Got post from the 5th June, then jumps to the 11th June with a post from 03.26AM with a whole load of quoted posts from the 10th June.

Whats going on?

Someone made selective quoting on the 11th, from the 10th, but form another thread:
viewtopic.php?p=1066198#p1066198

That's all.

I guessed the posts got moved from the aero regulations thread to the ‘opinions on thread’

Just ends up looking messy for anyone reading it back

[hollus]

But the post was not moved, it was originally quoted, posted, like this.

[senja]

Nope, you can’t use that excuse.
This is "fans" saying they can’t change the regs even for safety, I say why not, when we’ve had to put up with it through the past years when it was not even a safety measure.

If the rules are impacting drivers health then it needs to change and no hypocrisy from fans should stand in the way.

They can change the regs for safety. But in this case, no reg change is needed. There is a solution within the regs, which MB is fully free to apply if they care about their drivers health.

Lets be real here, you saying "no reg change is needed,There is a solution within the regs", is something you've just pulled out of arse, as you have no idea if true or not, some have bouncing with higher ride hight, and even if it works, so... you want a formula, where you want competitiors hobbling.

And lets be more honest here, people are willing and happy with dangerous cars and driver injuries if the victim is Merc, even when again and again they ignore it is majority of the grid with issues, they just fixate on Merc, even ignore that it is something like 18/20 drivers that are now raising the issue. They even ignore previous rule changes and pretend they didn't happen.

People moaned again and again about restrictions during 2014 and yet we now have more restrictions then ever with budget cap and development time and suddenly people are happy with it.

Wow, those previous years really must have eaten people up inside. F1 fans are strange people where they actually gleefully desiring dangerous cars and driver injuries.

Wtf are you talking about? If only one team not having problems with it, then is totally possible to be solved within the regs...

[senja]

I sympathise with both sides, but we have to face the fact that some cars do not have the problem and would be disadvantaged by any change.
Worst case, Merc spend all their money and time sorting it and fall behind Mclaren and have a duff year, but they will still have a flying start to next year, so swings and roundabouts.

If All the teams are suffering, maybe a few days extra testing tagged on to a race weekend?

If ALL team agree then that is a different case

Have we not had teams disadvanged all the times with rules changes to bring them back into the pack?
Inseason fric changes, engine modes, the change of the floor at last minute?
When are we now getting uptight about rule changes especially one that is being looked at for HEALTH AND SAFETY

suddenly that is a NO NO
Why?

F*cking FRIC that even Marussia have? They alloved it for seasons, till all teams developed it, even Marussia, then they baned it... Engine modes too all teams had. What floor at last minute you talking about? If you talking about 2021 rules, they were changed between the seasons, and it's been same for everybody.

[f1jcw]

According to AMUS it's only 3 drivers that are very vocal about porposing:

Nur drei Piloten sprechen
Mercedes-Teamchef Wolff lässt anklingen, dass sich die Fahrer einig seien. "Soweit ich das verstehe, hat fast jeder gesagt, dass etwas passieren muss." Da hört man aus den Fahrerbesprechungen von anderen Seiten Gegenteiliges. Es sollen sich nur drei Piloten wirklich kritisch und aktiv geäußert haben am Freitag nach den beiden Trainings. Hamilton soll nicht dazu gehört haben. Die meisten scheint das Thema Bouncing und Bottoming, wie die Engländer sagen, nicht so zu beschäftigen wie etwa Russell oder Sainz.

Only three drivers speak
Mercedes team boss Wolff hints that the drivers are in agreement. "As far as I understand it, almost everyone has said that something has to happen." You hear the opposite from other sides in the drivers' meetings. Only three drivers were said to have been really critical and active on Friday after the two practice sessions. Hamilton is not said to have been one of them. Most of them don't seem to be as concerned about bouncing and bottoming, as the English say, as Russell or Sainz are.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... er-fahrer/

I would do the exact same if I were Toto, but I expect not much going to happen as there is an easy solution for all teams if they wish to make the life for their drivers more comfy.

I find it very strange with the Amus article, everyone on here, on auto sport and on other websites keep missing, ignoring a very crucial part of it.

‘Only three drivers were said to have been really critical and active on Friday‘

Only 3 drivers on Friday.
Friday

In case anyone missed it, it said Friday

After that we we have had George in his role of union rep come out and said the majority of drivers are showing concern, it maybe have being AFTER FRIDAY

[f1jcw]

I sympathise with both sides, but we have to face the fact that some cars do not have the problem and would be disadvantaged by any change.
Worst case, Merc spend all their money and time sorting it and fall behind Mclaren and have a duff year, but they will still have a flying start to next year, so swings and roundabouts.

If All the teams are suffering, maybe a few days extra testing tagged on to a race weekend?

If ALL team agree then that is a different case

Have we not had teams disadvanged all the times with rules changes to bring them back into the pack?
Inseason fric changes, engine modes, the change of the floor at last minute?
When are we now getting uptight about rule changes especially one that is being looked at for HEALTH AND SAFETY

suddenly that is a NO NO
Why?

F*cking FRIC that even Marussia have? They alloved it for seasons, till all teams developed it, even Marussia, then they baned it... Engine modes too all teams had. What floor at last minute you talking about? If you talking about 2021 rules, they were changed between the seasons, and it's been same for everybody.

Fric wasn’t at the same level for all the teams, surly you understand that

Engine modes wasn’t at the same level for all the teams, surly you understand that

The floor was amended after the design stage, causing massive issues, surly you understand that and they targeted a specific type of car.

[f1jcw]

They can change the regs for safety. But in this case, no reg change is needed. There is a solution within the regs, which MB is fully free to apply if they care about their drivers health.

Lets be real here, you saying "no reg change is needed,There is a solution within the regs", is something you've just pulled out of arse, as you have no idea if true or not, some have bouncing with higher ride hight, and even if it works, so... you want a formula, where you want competitiors hobbling.

And lets be more honest here, people are willing and happy with dangerous cars and driver injuries if the victim is Merc, even when again and again they ignore it is majority of the grid with issues, they just fixate on Merc, even ignore that it is something like 18/20 drivers that are now raising the issue. They even ignore previous rule changes and pretend they didn't happen.

People moaned again and again about restrictions during 2014 and yet we now have more restrictions then ever with budget cap and development time and suddenly people are happy with it.

Wow, those previous years really must have eaten people up inside. F1 fans are strange people where they actually gleefully desiring dangerous cars and driver injuries.

Wtf are you talking about? If only one team not having problems with it, then is totally possible to be solved within the regs...

This is another thing I don’t get. People repeatedly, no matter the evidence, no matter how many educate them, keep posting lies. Why keep posting "only one team"
Is it only one team, no it isn’t, so why keep repeating it.

[senja]

Educate yourself, instead suggesting something banned targeting specific team. When reality is completely different. FRIC should be illegal from the strat. But they allowed that specific team to run it for few seasons. Same as DAS, or holes on wheels, or burning oil, or changing tires, or illegal tests...

[henry]

I think there are too many conclusions being drawn about the situation as it is now. We are at the beginning of this set of regulations.

Right now one team ( Red Bull) is able to have race winning performance with small amounts of bouncing and another similar performance with fairly significant bouncing (Ferrari). The assumption of many arguments is that low bounce is always going to be faster. But what if it’s not? If a team comes along with a higher performance package and Red Bull find that they need to suffer bouncing to compete they will obviously go down that route.

In that scenario,for the safety of the drivers, the regulations will need to change, much as many sports have, and will in future, to manage concussion.

I can envisage 3 changes, which may singly or in concert improve things.

1. Limit the damage to the driver. It should be relatively simple to measure the forces but what should the criteria be? Peak G, sustained average G, weighted average over some period? when should it apply and crucially what should the penalty be? Since it’s a safety issue perhaps black flag. Imagine the melt down if a driver were retired near the end of the race because the combination of lower fuel and wind shift pushed the bounceometer over the threshold.

2. Allow more sophisticated suspension components. I have never seen an explanation of why they banned the acceleration based facilities, inerters and inertial damping valves. The cynic in me thinks they wanted to make it harder to control heave and bouncing. They might return the use of these or even allow active. It will probably increase car mass which some fans will resent hugely.

3. Change aerodynamics. They might allow wind tunnel testing in the bouncing velocity range, they might allow more straight line track tests. They might increase ground clearance, thicker plank, although I believe Mercedes have suggested this is not as effective as is wished. And anyway the teams would revise the underfloor shapes and sealing in pursuit of downforce and probably get back to bouncing.

My opinion is that the regulations precipitated this issue and the regulations will need to change to fix it.

[Quantum]

Educate yourself, instead suggesting something banned targeting specific team. When reality is completely different. FRIC should be illegal from the strat. But they allowed that specific team to run it for few seasons. Same as DAS, or holes on wheels, or burning oil, or changing tires, or illegal tests...

The leading runners all had a variation of FRICS. It also stands to reason that the ban had little to no impact on Mercedes themeslves.

Onto the bouncing, I think Henry has it right.

Every single car is experiencing porpoising, that is an undeniable fact. To what degree is the question.
If the field starts to converge performance wise we could get more aggressive set ups and developments that exacerbate the problem.
So while one team maybe suffering today, it's no guarantee that the ones who are dealing with it wont suffer the phenomena down the road.

And if we reach that stage, the FIA will be compromised by not taking action sooner.
There are ready to go fixes in place. Costs will be a side issue compared to the development resources being directed by some teams to solve the problem.