Bib parc fermé ride height trick

[Watto]

Who can actually say that it has not contributed to the performance of the car?
Nobody but RBR, and the statement they made about not having used it between Q & R may be believed, or not.

Bottom line to me, why has RBR brought the device into the car as it is, if it not to gain an advantage?

If we want to give them the benefit of a doubt, if the device allowed Red Bull to make this changes quicker during FPs, that could be worth making it, especially if you are limited by time to make changes in free practices (I am not sure this is the case always).

Thats the only benefit of doubt I can think of and I do think its fair. In particular with sprint weekends.

Is it possible the FIA were spooked a little that it may be a little too easy for a mechanic make a change pre race with some of the above mentioned bleed the brakes. and so on it may not look out of place unless you knew what you were looking for with all the setup on the grid that happens. Wheels off etc etc

[FittingMechanics]

Thats the only benefit of doubt I can think of and I do think its fair. In particular with sprint weekends.

Is it possible the FIA were spooked a little that it may be a little too easy for a mechanic make a change pre race with some of the above mentioned bleed the brakes. and so on it may not look out of place unless you knew what you were looking for with all the setup on the grid that happens. Wheels off etc etc

Yeah, I think that is one reading of it. It may be something innocent but if the scrutineers are not aware of it that it can be changed without anyone noticing. So they will add some more checks and balances (maybe seal over it) to make sure it can't be changed during parc ferme.

I still think it is more likely that they used it to make a change during parc ferme. Process they explained is used for their bib change is not simple so hard to see how it would be a big benefit during free practice. But if it can be done during inspection without anyone noticing, that is a benefit.

[Cassius]

Thats the only benefit of doubt I can think of and I do think its fair. In particular with sprint weekends.

Is it possible the FIA were spooked a little that it may be a little too easy for a mechanic make a change pre race with some of the above mentioned bleed the brakes. and so on it may not look out of place unless you knew what you were looking for with all the setup on the grid that happens. Wheels off etc etc

Yeah, I think that is one reading of it. It may be something innocent but if the scrutineers are not aware of it that it can be changed without anyone noticing. So they will add some more checks and balances (maybe seal over it) to make sure it can't be changed during parc ferme.

I still think it is more likely that they used it to make a change during parc ferme. Process they explained is used for their bib change is not simple so hard to see how it would be a big benefit during free practice. But if it can be done during inspection without anyone noticing, that is a benefit.

It is not likely at all. If the FIA sees them opening up the car in that area they would be immediately disqualified. It is just plain illegal. I don't see why any team would do that.

In the last few years there have only been TDs or disqualifications for grey areas or errors (think Austin last year, Spa Merc fuel issue this year), but not for something as blatantly as changing your car during PF.

[organic]

Formu1a Uno claims that former RB engineers at McLaren pointed out the bib trick



Also

The component that allows the height adjustment of the first part of the floor is located in the cockpit of the RB20 , more precisely in the pedal area. With this component you act on the preload of the shock absorber positioned in the T Tray of practically all F1 cars and it is clearly very useful during free practice to find the best compromise between the performance of the car and the wear of the pad , which has been heavily regulated in recent years. It should therefore be emphasized that having such a device in the car is therefore not considered illegal; it becomes so if the preload is modified when the parc fermé is in force.

In the case of Red Bull, in order to make adjustments it is clear that the driver cannot be seated in the cockpit, just as more mechanics will be needed to remove "at least three macro elements in the front of the RB20" the Anglo-Austrian team told us. It would therefore seem very difficult to make a quick adjustment without going unnoticed

[FittingMechanics]

It is not likely at all. If the FIA sees them opening up the car in that area they would be immediately disqualified. It is just plain illegal. I don't see why any team would do that.

In the last few years there have only been TDs or disqualifications for grey areas or errors (think Austin last year, Spa Merc fuel issue this year), but not for something as blatantly as changing your car during PF.

What is the issue here is that the teams can and do a number of things on the car during parc ferme. They check parts, they replace broken parts, they open it up. I am sure that they remove the front wing and plenty of other panels during these inspections. Would it really be noticed if after these changes a mechanic inside the cockpit makes a small adjustment beneath the heelbox? It's well hidden from view and if the stewards don't know it can change the ride height, why would they be suspicious?

This is why Red Bull has agreed to implement some changes (procedural or otherwise) so that this type of change cannot be made.

If it was not possible to "sneak in a change" then no changes in procedure and no sealing of parts would be necessary.

DSQ have been done when there is a clear proof (via measurement) that there was a breach. If for example, a seal FIA puts in parc ferme on that part is breached then Red Bull would be disqualified. Problem here is that there was no sensor or way to prove they made a change, before FIA was alerted. Or at least we have no proof of it so far, who knows what might surface. There are many cameras in F1 and if a team was aware of it, they could have tried to catch them in the act.

[Watto]

Thats the only benefit of doubt I can think of and I do think its fair. In particular with sprint weekends.

Is it possible the FIA were spooked a little that it may be a little too easy for a mechanic make a change pre race with some of the above mentioned bleed the brakes. and so on it may not look out of place unless you knew what you were looking for with all the setup on the grid that happens. Wheels off etc etc

Yeah, I think that is one reading of it. It may be something innocent but if the scrutineers are not aware of it that it can be changed without anyone noticing. So they will add some more checks and balances (maybe seal over it) to make sure it can't be changed during parc ferme.

I still think it is more likely that they used it to make a change during parc ferme. Process they explained is used for their bib change is not simple so hard to see how it would be a big benefit during free practice. But if it can be done during inspection without anyone noticing, that is a benefit.

I am highly skeptical of Red Bulls denials too. Not so much with proof just that if they had you are going to deny it. Unless someone comes out with absolute proof of it being used you can't deny.

As much too the Amus report feels a little tit for tat the old days of Toro and Christian takeing swipes at one another. Its put the spotlight right on Red Bull and perhaps off them a little.



For sure though I can see it as being a big advantage if was used in parc ferme.

[deargodhelpme]

Formu1a Uno claims that former RB engineers at McLaren pointed out the bib trick



Also

The component that allows the height adjustment of the first part of the floor is located in the cockpit of the RB20 , more precisely in the pedal area. With this component you act on the preload of the shock absorber positioned in the T Tray of practically all F1 cars and it is clearly very useful during free practice to find the best compromise between the performance of the car and the wear of the pad , which has been heavily regulated in recent years. It should therefore be emphasized that having such a device in the car is therefore not considered illegal; it becomes so if the preload is modified when the parc fermé is in force.

In the case of Red Bull, in order to make adjustments it is clear that the driver cannot be seated in the cockpit, just as more mechanics will be needed to remove "at least three macro elements in the front of the RB20" the Anglo-Austrian team told us. It would therefore seem very difficult to make a quick adjustment without going unnoticed

They also say they suspect them of using it as early as 2023 and even asked if it could be controlled remotely.

However, there is discontent among the competing teams as it is believed that this 'illegal' regulation, the world champion team has been using it since as early as 2023 and, in addition, they have been asked to verify that they could not even control it remotely, thus without physically breaking the parc ferme.

[deadhead]

Since there aren’t any consequences for doing so the trend seems to be to run an illegal thing until you get caught and then simply stop using it ?

I like it.

[motobaleno]

What a surprise! in the pedal area just where changes are permitted also during parc ferme. an unwanted coincidence for sure. Maybe later someone will specify that the famous panel to be removed to adjust the teatray has to be removed also to adjust pedals...power of the chance!

[basti313]

Thats the only benefit of doubt I can think of and I do think its fair. In particular with sprint weekends.

Is it possible the FIA were spooked a little that it may be a little too easy for a mechanic make a change pre race with some of the above mentioned bleed the brakes. and so on it may not look out of place unless you knew what you were looking for with all the setup on the grid that happens. Wheels off etc etc

Yeah, I think that is one reading of it. It may be something innocent but if the scrutineers are not aware of it that it can be changed without anyone noticing. So they will add some more checks and balances (maybe seal over it) to make sure it can't be changed during parc ferme.

I still think it is more likely that they used it to make a change during parc ferme. Process they explained is used for their bib change is not simple so hard to see how it would be a big benefit during free practice. But if it can be done during inspection without anyone noticing, that is a benefit.

It is not likely at all. If the FIA sees them opening up the car in that area they would be immediately disqualified. It is just plain illegal. I don't see why any team would do that.

In the last few years there have only been TDs or disqualifications for grey areas or errors (think Austin last year, Spa Merc fuel issue this year), but not for something as blatantly as changing your car during PF.

There is also constant video evidence, they store the videos of the car in PF for exactly this reason. The camera is right above the car, so exactly looking at this...
I think this is all pure nonsense.

[stewie325]

What a surprise! in the pedal area just where changes are permitted also during parc ferme. an unwanted coincidence for sure. Maybe later someone will specify that the famous panel to be removed to adjust the teatray has to be removed also to adjust pedals...power of the chance!

Does anyone know where other teams place their own bib adjusters?

[Vanja #66]

Can we agree that being able to run two different setups in qualy and race is usually beneficial? We can speculate as much as we want and think how much it could help, but I think the basics of it are simple. If you are able to make a change in parc ferme, that is almost certainly an advantage (or at least opportunity for an advantage).

Maybe in some cases you don't need to make a change because it's perfect as is, but for things like ride height which are affected by the weight, I think it doesn't work that way.

It's a moot point. It's not an allowed procedure per rules and this is clear. Allegations of RB doing it come only from McLaren drivers, eager to force a non-issue as a discourse in my view. It's impossible to prove RB made these changes before and we'll see if there's a massive step-change in their performance, I highly doubt it. From german sources, it seems this change requires removal of some body panels from inside the cockpit and doing this would raise a lot of issues with anyone who sees it happening in Parc Ferme conditions. If there really was a device that is located inside the cockpit, we'd hear about it by now and it would have raised suspicion much sooner

[motobaleno]

It is not likely at all. If the FIA sees them opening up the car in that area they would be immediately disqualified. It is just plain illegal. I don't see why any team would do that.

This is simply not true it is perfectly legal to work in the pedal area during parc ferme.

[pantherxxx]

So it sounds like it was a perfectly legal element, which helped them to setup the car during free practive, nothing more. They couldn't do anything illegal with it during parc fermé.

[organic]

So it sounds like it was a perfectly legal element, which helped them to setup the car during free practive, nothing more. They couldn't do anything illegal with it during parc fermé.

They could have but it probably would have been noticed if they'd actually been doing it because it would require removing panelling and using a specific tool

There's still the possibility that it happened, but it seems less likely reading the information available today than it did when the story broke.

Also that this is quite a clear retaliation by McLaren for the complaint over their rear wing makes me feel like it's even less relevant