Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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Is Webber being sabotaged by RB management?

Poll ended at 07 Jun 2010, 15:03

Yes
23
33%
Maybe
20
29%
Unlikely
17
24%
no way
10
14%
 
Total votes: 70

Mysticf1
Mysticf1
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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I think id prefer he drove for an Aussie V8 Supercar team than play servant to Vettel. Are there any realistic places for him togo? Renault maybe? I dont really buy the Ferrari rumours.

Is it possible the problem stem'd from Webbers engineer not passing on the order? I believe unlike redbull management, he is very close to his engineers / mechanics...Frank Williams commented on his ability to charm his team.

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raceman
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Joined: 25 Jul 2009, 08:57
Location: Pune, India

Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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^^Webber is the most complete driver on the grid. :mrgreen:

(tag taken from last year :twisted: )

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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autogyro wrote: Webber and Adrian should find a team with proper 'British' values.
Red Bull is a British team. It may be owned by an Austrian but everything else (bar the drivers) is British. British designer, British factory, British workforce.

Newey has said that Red Bull is his last F1 team so he's not going to another team.

Where else would Webber go? To win the title you need to be in a competitive (and preferably the best) car. Currently that's Red Bull, McLaren, Ferrari and perhaps Renault. Not sure Mercedes will replicate Brawn's performance of last year for a while. McLaren is not going to change it's driver line-up, Ferrari probably won't (although I think Massa's time there is limited now). As for Renault, not sure. Kubica shows that the thing can be competitive but not consistently so. Will next year be different?

I think Webber's best course of action is to keep his head down, keep his engineer and mechanics 'on side' and try to beat Vettel on pure pace. Vettel is fragile I think; another couple of decent wins by Webber ahead of him may be enough to break him (or at least make him desperate enough to get ragged). Also, getting a reasonable points lead ahead of Vettel is the only defence Webber has against those in the team who would see Vettel win the title. Give himself a big enough cushion and he can then demand the team support him.

I don't envy Webber the next few weeks though - fighting 'the enemy within' is always difficult.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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raceman
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Joined: 25 Jul 2009, 08:57
Location: Pune, India

Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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^^ =D>

well said

Richard
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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The best outcome would be for a third party intervention to separate them so one gets a clear lead over the other, on track and then in the WDC.

Currently, that looks most likely to be a McLaren sandwich, or reliability.

BreezyRacer
BreezyRacer
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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Now we can truly appreciate just how improbable Webber’s hot streak has been. He needs to thank Lewis Hamilton and Robert Kubica for his wins in Barcelona and Monaco. Lewis for getting out of the pits ahead of Vettel, thus preventing this same act in that race, and Kubica for qualifying second at Monaco, putting a gap between himself and Vettel.

This whole thing could also explain Mark’s burning desire to gap the field on every restart at Monaco so Vettel couldn’t get close.

That RB6 chassis has to be like a drug to someone like Webber though, and Webber’s only shot at the WDC to date.

And last year after kicking Vettel’s ass in Germany Mark’s performance mysteriously feel off till Red Bull saw the chance for a constructor’s championship. Wonder what that was about?

Richard
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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Do you mean he was lucky that there weren't opportunities for team orders in earlier races?

myurr
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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Just_a_fan wrote:I don't envy Webber the next few weeks though - fighting 'the enemy within' is always difficult.
I certainly agree with you that he should keep his head down and do his talking on the track, however it's clear to me that if Webber wants to win the championship this year he is not only fighting the rest of the grid as well as his team mate, he is going to end up fighting his team.

At some point or another the team is going to give him a coded instruction to let Vettel past - if he doesn't comply then expect the sabotaging to begin. It need only be subtle before it's enough to knock his confidence, slowing him enough to give Vettel a clear run.

If you don't have confidence in the team then you are better off going for a driver somewhere, anywhere, else. A team like Renault, Williams or even Sauber or Force India would be better than sticking with a team, no matter how good their car, who simply want your team mate to beat you.

BreezyRacer
BreezyRacer
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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richard_leeds wrote:Do you mean he was lucky that there weren't opportunities for team orders in earlier races?
Yes, that's what this incident has shown me now that I reflect on how those races went.

segedunum
segedunum
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Joined: 03 Apr 2007, 13:49

Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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autogyro wrote:Up until a couple of races ago, I (and i believe many others) thought of Webber as a good but not great driver.
That's a bit of an oxymoron really. You don't improve in a couple of races, and I've watched enough of him racing in F3000 and elsewhere to know that these incidents follow him around even though he is on occasion very fast. He's hardly one of the best on the grid - that's the problem for Vettel and Red Bull.

However, given what we know about the incident it is not his fault and no, he wasn't too slow as Red Bull are bizarrely suggesting. You can nit-pick that maybe he should have been cleverer in knowing what was going to happen to regain the position into the corner, and I have, but it was the team who engineered that situation.
Vettel has yet to develop a proper character and ditch his prima donna attitude.
It's more than just that, and it has nothing to do with Mark Webber. I question whether Vettel really is that good, and that's why Vettel looks as if he is feeling the pressure and the reason for all those hand gestures. Getting beat by a team mate is one thing, but self-doubt when the holy grail is in sight is quite another. I question how he failed to defend his position against Hamilton at the start in that race and I question why he felt the need to go down the inside of Webber when it was clear he had a straight line speed advantage and could have easily passed him before the corner and got the optimum line on the outside. The best drivers always think ahead when overtaking given the cirumstances. It's not late braking, being aggressive or anything else. It's thinking ahead in a few tenths of a second.

The penny dropped for me at Monaco. I seriously question his performance there where all the champions and promising drivers have at least showed something, if not won. Jim Clark was always fast there even if he didn't win and Senna was obviously good there. Prost was competent if not spectacularly fast. Previous champions like Schumacher have won a few times, Alonso won there under a fair bit of pressure, Hamilton pulled a win out of the bag there and Raikkonen won in 2005 with a great performance in qualifying as well as pushing a rather rubbish car to the front row last year. They've all made the difference at Monaco. But for the safety cars Webber would have been a minute down the road. Vettel just doesn't add up. I want to see......something, and it's not there.

....and the Nurburgring last year. How can you get outdriven by your team mate in the same car to the extent that he gives you the time of a pit lane penalty, and you still can't beat him? I know those races are few and far between, but the questions rain down.

The problem for Red Bull is that somebody like Schumacher, although he got favourable treatment, was good enough to warrant that treatment without making his team look too stupid. Vettel is making his team look stupid. Red Bull just look desperate at the moment, not only providing silly excuses such as that chassis change after Monaco but now having to engineer situations where Vettel can win when he should just be scoring points when he can.
Last edited by segedunum on 03 Jun 2010, 15:07, edited 1 time in total.

segedunum
segedunum
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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BreezyRacer wrote:
richard_leeds wrote:Do you mean he was lucky that there weren't opportunities for team orders in earlier races?
Yes, that's what this incident has shown me now that I reflect on how those races went.
Yep, Webber basically needs to be miles ahead of Vettel. That's why there were long faces at the Nurburgring and Interlagos last year, and Barcelona and Monaco this. Vettel wasn't fast enough and his team could do nothing for him.

segedunum
segedunum
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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richard_leeds wrote:err... that'll be Ferrari ;)
Definitely not. The 'Latin' thing always rears its head. Even when Ferrari have found a winning formula, if it's not Italian or at least 'Latin' in origin the baby goes out with the bathwater every time.

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WhiteBlue
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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I hope that Vettel has a technical defect free qualifying and race for the next two races. He had five technical failures so far to none of his team mate and soon the law of coincidence must evens that out a bit for the RB drivers. It should be enough to get Sebastian back into the WDC race on a level with Mark. But perhaps the RB6 becomes more reliable which would be equally good for him.

His natural speed - seen in Bahrain, Australia, Malaysia, Turkey - should hopefully keep him ahead on the grid and should provide opportunities for his team mate to make mistakes like he did in Australia or get involved in mid field melees like China.
I question whether Vettel really is that good, and that's why Vettel looks as if he is feeling the pressure and the reason for all those hand gestures.
Yes, he is that good and fast! Reading this thread one gets the impression that some Webber fans see him as the anti christ. Webber ran into Hamilton's car in Australia for christ's sake. Mistakes can be made and Vettel's was largely alleviated by messed up team order and unclear rules of engagement. A driver can make a mistake and remain a decent person!

The most important thing in my mind is the quality of the team management. I don't care if they give out team orders in cases where the team may profit from them, but if they do they should better be precise and fair about it. If one more time a RB driver publicly shows his displeasure about the actions of the management the whole bunch needs to be fired for their incompetence.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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I think it should be pointed out that WB's comment on Webber hitting Hamilton in Australia (I assume) is meant to be saying taht, "see, everyone does it." rather than actual bashing of Webber. Just to get the air clear.
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Richard
Richard
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Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 14:41
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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segedunum wrote:
richard_leeds wrote:err... that'll be Ferrari ;)
Definitely not. The 'Latin' thing always rears its head. Even when Ferrari have found a winning formula, if it's not Italian or at least 'Latin' in origin the baby goes out with the bathwater every time.
I was attempting irony.

autgyro said a "winning team", and on the basis of F1 history that's Ferrari. Also true if you say the last 10 years. Also true for the last 5 years. Point being that a consistently winning team in F1 isn't a British team.