[KVRC] Khamsin Virtual Racecar Challenge 2016

Post here information about your own engineering projects, including but not limited to building your own car or designing a virtual car through CAD.
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CAEdevice
49
Joined: 09 Jan 2014, 15:33
Location: Erba, Italy

Re: Khamsin Virtual Racecar Challenge 2016

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No Lotus wrote:
CAEdevice wrote:
No Lotus wrote:I've just registered my team as "Scuderia Fase" in the introductory subclass. The first car is the "Phase 1".
"Scuderia Fase" sounds like your are from Italy. Is there a third Italian team with Variante and CAEdevice?
I aspire to be Italian in spirit (my dad and grandmother lived in Rome in the '50's and spoke Italian) and we all know that Italian cars are the fastest. :D

BTW, I had contacted you some time ago through PM and have not yet responded to your response. Please let me apologize for that. I am working on an aero project with a couple of the guys on here.
No problem. Can't wait to see your car.

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variante
138
Joined: 09 Apr 2012, 11:36
Location: Monza

Re: Khamsin Virtual Racecar Challenge 2016

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For this round I would wait awarding any point. I would wait until problems with the solver get sorted out and new, definitive results are produced.

Mantium, are your downforce and cooling values similar to the values you were getting from your own tests? I mean, is that result completely off or what?

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LVDH
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Joined: 31 Mar 2015, 14:23

Re: Khamsin Virtual Racecar Challenge 2016

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Hi,

I am not sure what to think of this.
I have not had very much time this year to really work on the car or look into the cooling issue that suddenly hit my car out of nowhere.
I have a feeling that something in how it is handled is wrong. But as I cannot put my finger onto the exact issue I have never commented.
The car for race one got struck by the cooling issue when fixing minor details to make it rule complaint. Suddenly the pressure differential was way off but I had no time to fix anything. The drag and downforce levels are a bit better than what I expected but not far off. CoP is a bit off but I understand why. So far I do not want to replicate the KVRC way of calculating it as I do not agree with how it is calculated.
What I have seen in developing my new entry is that the pressure differential seems to be extremely sensitive to minor geometric changes. Once I only slightly changed my side mirrors and went from +12 to -46. So I continue to think that something is wrong but I do not know what.
All I do know is that I can create valid designs with even more downforce than my last entry while satisfying cooling requirements. So I am confident to start catching up on the left out points with the next car. Why and how my designs sometimes work and sometimes do not remains a mystery.

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Alonso Fan
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Joined: 06 Apr 2013, 18:21

Re: Khamsin Virtual Racecar Challenge 2016

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Such a shame
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CAEdevice
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Joined: 09 Jan 2014, 15:33
Location: Erba, Italy

Re: Khamsin Virtual Racecar Challenge 2016

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LVDH wrote:I have a feeling that something in how it is handled is wrong.
I only quoted a part of Mantium's comment but I agree with most of his thought.

I am convinced that there is no a real "solver" issue (even if a finer mesh over the inlets would help) but a "physical model issue" (I am only talking about the cooling strage behaviour) related to the bc.

In my tests I realized that the imposed flow model works quite well when the local total pressure is positive. On the contrary, low pressure (local, it can happen to have a positive integral with local low regions) sometimes generates odd effects.

To avoid this problems I used a purely empirical approach: I submitted a car with the highest pressure differential I could.

I can propose two possible solutions:

1) Short term (emergency solution): I would suppress the inlet boundary condition (imposed flow), estimating the cooling efficiency only by computing the contribution of normal forces (measured in the same way of the forces on the "*wings" files). A minimum normal force (inlet resultant - outlet resultant, free total area with very minimum requirements, around 25000mm2 for each inlet/outlet surfaces, with the same internal template used now) should be decided and included into the rulebook. Metrologically speaking a force (N) is homogeneous to the integral of pressure (Pa*m2). This solution is much more stable (even if less "realistic" in the volume very near to the inlet).

2) Long term: implementing the porous media or an equivalent simulation workaround (es. Explicit geometry bottleneck) in order to avoid bc on inlets.

Last point: it is more probable that cars with low pressure differential (less than 10-20 mPa) will have instability issues if compared to cars with higher pressure on the inlets.
Last edited by CAEdevice on 28 May 2016, 09:55, edited 2 times in total.

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CAEdevice
49
Joined: 09 Jan 2014, 15:33
Location: Erba, Italy

Re: Khamsin Virtual Racecar Challenge 2016

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About race 01, there are two possibilities in my opinion: to re-compute it with my "short term" solution or to accept a compromise agreement considering it valid but using an higher "minimum" power (70% instead of 40%).

Considering that Race 2 submission is next week, I am convinced that the simplest solution would the only possible one (I exclude the possibility to come back to 2015 cooling rules, it would be a huge step behind for KVRC techical level).

What do you think about it?

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machin
162
Joined: 25 Nov 2008, 14:45

Re: Khamsin Virtual Racecar Challenge 2016

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The problem for me is that I was purposefully very cautious with my front end downforce for round 1, because I didn't want to lose any power.... in my opinion IF the rules change then the round should be recomputed to the new rules, but there should be no points awarded (it would be considered another "test" round). This would give us a new starting point to start our season and development.

Retro-spectively changing rules is not right IMO. (Imagine if F1 decided to award top points for last place, but only made that change after the drivers had all completed the race thinking top points went for first place!)
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CAEdevice
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Joined: 09 Jan 2014, 15:33
Location: Erba, Italy

Re: Khamsin Virtual Racecar Challenge 2016

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machin wrote:The problem for me is that I was purposefully very cautious with my front end downforce for round 1, because I didn't want to lose any power.... in my opinion IF the rules change then the round should be recomputed to the new rules, but there should be no points awarded (it would be considered another "test" round). This would give us a new starting point to start our season and development.

Retro-spectively changing rules is not right IMO. (Imagine if F1 decided to award top points for last place, but only made that change after the drivers had all completed the race thinking top points went for first place!)
I suggested a compromise agreement, allowing milder rules for who has had cooling issues (the strange behaviour of the solutor could be a consequence of low pressure, not a cause): it would be applied only if all the partecipants would accept it.

To not consider points from the first race would not be good for me for example. I invested some time while other partecipants had no time to work on the car. In the next months I will be quite busy and the situation would be the opposite one. Canceling the first race points (or reducing), if we consider that the solver is public and free released (so some odd results in low cooling pressure conditions should have been tested and known, by the "top teams" at least) is the same as changing the rules retrospectively.

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CAEdevice
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Joined: 09 Jan 2014, 15:33
Location: Erba, Italy

Re: Khamsin Virtual Racecar Challenge 2016

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Have you ever wondered how it would look a car with (much) more than 11000N df , using the suction effect of the inlets ? Here is a ( further) example.
Unfortunately the pressure differential is very unstable ( changes from +5 to -100mPa when varying small body details )... but it must depend on the solutor ;)

Image

Code: Select all

Total drag: 2281.59 N
Drag coefficient - Cd: 1.09
Drag area - Cd.A: 1.90 m2
Total Downforce: -11804.14 N
Downforce coefficient - Cl: -5.63
Downforce area - Cl.A: -9.85 m2
CoP of downforce: 1.625 m along streamwise (Y) direction from Y = 0.00 m.
KVRC Only: Corrected CoP of downforce: 1.637 m along streamwise (Y) direction from Y = 0.00 m.
The pressure at intake and exhaust are:

Engine intake, Area: 0.016m2 - Compliant
Surface integral of pressure: 11.14 Pa.m2
Engine exhaust, Area: 0.010m2 - Compliant
Surface integral of pressure: -0.07 Pa.m2
Cooling intake, Area: 0.101m2 - Compliant
Cooling exhaust, Area: 0.076m2 - Compliant
Differential of surface integral of pressure: -103.27 Pa.m2
PS: Seriously, we really need to suppress the inlet BC, unsing only the resultant force to measure the cooling power... next race submission date is in a few days.

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LVDH
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Joined: 31 Mar 2015, 14:23

Re: Khamsin Virtual Racecar Challenge 2016

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This is the same thing I am seeing. It is possible to use the cooling inlets and outlets for downforce and drag generation. But somehow it is extremely unstable and very minor geometric changes can totally change the pressure differential.

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CAEdevice
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Joined: 09 Jan 2014, 15:33
Location: Erba, Italy

Re: Khamsin Virtual Racecar Challenge 2016

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LVDH wrote:This is the same thing I am seeing. It is possible to use the cooling inlets and outlets for downforce and drag generation. But somehow it is extremely unstable and very minor geometric changes can totally change the pressure differential.
Yes, it is the boundary condition on the inlets that causes odd things.

The failed solutions instead are related to bad quality geometry (but this is not your case).

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LVDH
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Joined: 31 Mar 2015, 14:23

Re: Khamsin Virtual Racecar Challenge 2016

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CAEdevice wrote: Yes, it is the boundary condition on the inlets that causes odd things.
Is this a guess or are you sure? So far non of my suspicions survived my tests.

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CAEdevice
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Joined: 09 Jan 2014, 15:33
Location: Erba, Italy

Re: Khamsin Virtual Racecar Challenge 2016

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It is a guess, since I don't have access to the official simulations, but I have done some empirical tests with low pressure integral on the inlets (less than 20 Pa*m2 but more than 0). It seems that when local pressure is to low, the "suction" effect is simulated critically (raw mesh?). Also consider that the suction effect is not realistic.
With higher pressure (non suction effect) the results are less dependent on small details.

I have not a complete theoretical explanation, but I have always been interested in Feyerabend philosophy :)

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LVDH
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Joined: 31 Mar 2015, 14:23

Re: Khamsin Virtual Racecar Challenge 2016

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CAEdevice wrote: I have not a complete theoretical explanation, but I have always been interested in Feyerabend philosophy :)
I only go for Beer philosophy or stone cold facts.
In this case producing the latter seems very difficult though, so maybe it is beer time.

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CAEdevice
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Joined: 09 Jan 2014, 15:33
Location: Erba, Italy

Re: Khamsin Virtual Racecar Challenge 2016

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LVDH wrote:
CAEdevice wrote: I have not a complete theoretical explanation, but I have always been interested in Feyerabend philosophy :)
I only go for Beer philosophy or stone cold facts.
In this case producing the latter seems very difficult though, so maybe it is beer time.
It would perfect with the bufalina (pizza) I'm eating just now.