2017 Williams Martini Racing Team - Mercedes

[Restomaniac]

Pascal had some good drives in the manor, even getting points by racing and not attrition.
Again, i feel we have on Rose tinted glasses for Kubica.. I don't think he is able bodied enough and not to mention he may not be race sharp. Reminds me of the nostalgia people had for Kimi when he was driving a Mclaren, and even donkey years after that moment in time has evaporated and Kimi is a shadow of himself (or the newey mclarens) people still think he has what it takes. It can easily be an embarrassment for Kubica if he cannot manage a whole season; or if he gets beaten by Stroll.
He was good eight to ten years ago... wasn't really great.. so hard to see what people are seeing in him past his prime now having been outside of formula 1 for so long. Again look to Kimi coming back or shumacher to figure out how good Robert's going to be.

As for the car, i think Paddy is a very smart man. The car will be good; the team structure will make sure of that. Maybe better than Force India who knows? It's the drivers that will be the performance differentiator. Driver selection is key. They will need a driver that's 1.5 times as good as Perez or Ocon, because stroll is still wet behind the ears.

Then you look at the names mentioned.
Kubica-As you say, who knows.
Di Resta-Good but never great.
Kyvat-No doubt quick but now mentally fractured.

Can any of them take it to FI with Perez and Ocon? Can they take it to Renault with all the secrets and Sainz and Hulkenberg? McLaren with a proper engine in the back and Alonso and Vandoorne? They could very easily end up going backwards.

[Webber2011]

Pretty much agree with everything you've said

Apart from "He was good eight to ten years ago...wasn't really great.."

Kubica was an enormous talent !
He was doing incredible things in a car that was no where near good enough to deserve the results he put it in

[Stalker1]

This subforum has come alive! Watching Strolls perfomance from the second part of this season, I am more and more relaxed about the driver line-up and more concerned about the car itself. Lowe is the technical director, but he does not have the economic, technical and human resources available like he had in the Mercedes, so there is no quarantee that the next car would be more competetive than this years car.

From all the available options, none of the drivers is not particulary known about his ability to extract the maximum from the car. If the car is slow, which is possible, what difference it will make, who is behind the wheel beside Stroll, who is the number one driver anyway?

[Mr Brooksy]

who is the number one driver anyway?

Lawrence Stroll...

I'm not so worried about the car being quick out of the box, Williams send to have the ability to to design a good quick car (upper midfield since '14) out of the box... But it's the teams ability to understand it and develop it that seems to be the biggest issue! In 2014 they did a very good job in that Dept, but since then they've suffered with all manor of issues getting the car to compete in the development race!

The only glimmer of light has been the last few races, the team have come out of the bad slump in development form around Hungary... So here's hoping that is a sign of improved development...

Yes the other teams around them will improve especially McLaren and Renault, but I still think Paddy cam design a good quick car.

Next year is going to be interesting for Williams!

[f1316]

With Stroll in Mexico, we should also remember that - in addition to a good finish - he also qualified 1.1s away from his passed-his-peak teammate. That’s still a massive margin.

The points made about comparing Williams driver line up to others in the midfield is valid and I personally don’t feel they can possibly have a lineup as strong as their competitors with Stroll in the team - he’ll always be a Maldonado who can get the occasional good result but not a top talent in his own right.

Given he’s not going anywhere next year though, Williams need the strongest ‘#2’ they can possibly find - someone capable of carrying the burden by outperforming drivers in similar car - and in my mind, the only candidate with that potential is Kubica; just depends on if he’s physically capable and Williams will know that by now.

[Carinni]

Lauda spoke about bottas:
At the start, the car was suitable for both drivers,' Lauda told C More. 'But through development it became more suitable for Lewis's driving style.

So u c how a car development direction can affect a driver’s performance. That’s y I think massa’s performance against Alonso reflected that his raw pace is always here. 100% the Ferrari car was for Alonso only at that time but still only 0.2s adrift. Sure the strength of Alonso is his adaptability which massa is lack of. But once the car suits his style, I do think massa can be even faster than Alonso. U can c this from 2010 season when massa did match Alonso, obviously lost to Alonso only in the last few races of the season.
Alonso is famous for doing anything under table to beat his team mate, he sure will request the car development direction against massa’s style. So massa said Alonso is a bastard. But no doubt Alonso is a much more successful driver than massa. His ability to build a team around him, his adaptability to different cars, maybe number 1 in the grid.

[OneAlex]

^I think that raises a question actually. Do we know how much of the Williams car is being developed towards Stroll's driving style for next year? (or indeed was developed throughout this year against Massa's?)

Lawrence seems to be trying to influence the team with his cash as much as possible, I'm sure he'd be pushing Paddy for a car built around Lance which could further complicate the issue of who has the best chance of scoring points for the team in the second car based on whom it most suits.*

*Because whatever Lance's "improvement" this year, it won't be him scoring the points for the team outside of a few random good drives.

[Carinni]

Very often there is 0.7-1s gap between massa n stroll this season, almost biggest gap between team mates in f1, so I think the car is not developed against massa or favoring stroll unless stroll is nothing more than a taxi driver, he at least is European f3 champion. So I believe that massa did extract the most from the car, can’t believe that Kubica can be 1.5s faster than stroll. If it is the case, just dunno how stroll can win the f3 class?!

[Raleigh]

Stroll's early season woes can be put down to making the jump from F3 to F1 too quickly, he should have spent a year or two learning in GP2 inbetween.

However he has dramatically improved over the season, if you go back over the last 6 races where both have finished Stroll has finished ahead of Massa in 4 out of 6, he's becoming a very consistent points scorer and has now moved ahead of Massa in the championship.

He's quick in the wet too, for me speed in the rain has always been a good indicator of true talent.

Overall given the choice I'd probably still rather someone like Ocon or Wehrlien in that seat but Stroll is a good choice and I'm honestly happier about his side of the garage than the idea of Massa leading the team in 2018.

[Mr Brooksy]

For me, there is little question of Massa's one lap speed, he has done a pretty decent job this year. A few sessions where he didn't seem to get the most from the car (and as such has been stated by himself or the team) but by and large he's been good.

He has just been a bit disappointing on a semi regular basis in the races. Often saying he was quicker that cars finishing ahead of him, but once he got within 1 - 2 seconds, he just stayed there (yes I understand dirty air etc). He's just lost the fighting spirit it seems from the outside (and that's all any of us can see unless you are in the team).

As I said before, Kubica would be my first choice for fighting spirit alone. Would he be quicker than Massa in Qualifying? Maybe, maybe not. But in the races, I'd expect to see a driver in a slightly faster car at least get into DRS range a few times and see if he can shape up a pass. Excuse my memory, but I can't remember Massa doing that this year more than once or twice. Obviously the TV cameras haven't been showing the beautiful white and Martini striped cars much this year, but you've got to admit when we do see them, they are often holding station in the train.

Regarding Stroll, I've been quite critical of the kid this year, but I can not deny that at Monza qualifying in particular he was sensational in the wet in a car that is known to be terrible in those conditions. I'm not sure why he is so much slower than Massa in Qualifying, but the kid must have skills that he simply needs to unlock. I hope that happens soon...

[roon]

Stroll's early season woes can be put down to making the jump from F3 to F1 too quickly, he should have spent a year or two learning in GP2 inbetween.

However he has dramatically improved over the season, if you go back over the last 6 races where both have finished Stroll has finished ahead of Massa in 4 out of 6, he's becoming a very consistent points scorer and has now moved ahead of Massa in the championship.

He's quick in the wet too, for me speed in the rain has always been a good indicator of true talent.

Overall given the choice I'd probably still rather someone like Ocon or Wehrlien in that seat but Stroll is a good choice and I'm honestly happier about his side of the garage than the idea of Massa leading the team in 2018.

Perhaps the jump from feeder series generally, into complex hybrid-F1 cars, is bigger than it once was. Compared to older F1 eras.

[Carinni]

For me, there is little question of Massa's one lap speed, he has done a pretty decent job this year. A few sessions where he didn't seem to get the most from the car (and as such has been stated by himself or the team) but by and large he's been good.

He has just been a bit disappointing on a semi regular basis in the races. Often saying he was quicker that cars finishing ahead of him, but once he got within 1 - 2 seconds, he just stayed there (yes I understand dirty air etc). He's just lost the fighting spirit it seems from the outside (and that's all any of us can see unless you are in the team).

As I said before, Kubica would be my first choice for fighting spirit alone. Would he be quicker than Massa in Qualifying? Maybe, maybe not. But in the races, I'd expect to see a driver in a slightly faster car at least get into DRS range a few times and see if he can shape up a pass. Excuse my memory, but I can't remember Massa doing that this year more than once or twice. Obviously the TV cameras haven't been showing the beautiful white and Martini striped cars much this year, but you've got to admit when we do see them, they are often holding station in the train.

Regarding Stroll, I've been quite critical of the kid this year, but I can not deny that at Monza qualifying in particular he was sensational in the wet in a car that is known to be terrible in those conditions. I'm not sure why he is so much slower than Massa in Qualifying, but the kid must have skills that he simply needs to unlock. I hope that happens soon...

I think it is more due to the fact that this fw40 inherited the poor mechanical grip due to suspension design. This car is weak in pickup after exit of corners, making it extremely difficult to get pass, u can c that massa or stroll can get close to the front cars before the straight head, often maybe 0.2s, then it lost a lot when entering the straight, usually the gap will suddenly increased to 0.4s to 0.5s, making it unable to pass by drs in the straight. That didn’t happen in Force India. I think it is the car characteristics affected the drivers’ performance, so making it looks like massa is very weak in overtaking. With such weapon, I do think no one can overtake, even Alonso or Hamilton is behind the steering wheel. Fw40 is quick in the straight n high speed entering, but very weak in corner exit n pick up where mechanical grip plays the most important part, very hard for fw40 to keep close to the front car enough when exit, while Force India n McLaren make a great job in this aspect, they don’t have this issue. So it is just very hard to judge drivers’ performance by comparing different teams with different car. I just can say that usually 0.7s to 1s gap faster than your team mate, definitely this driver is doing a very great job.

[Carinni]

Stroll's early season woes can be put down to making the jump from F3 to F1 too quickly, he should have spent a year or two learning in GP2 inbetween.

However he has dramatically improved over the season, if you go back over the last 6 races where both have finished Stroll has finished ahead of Massa in 4 out of 6, he's becoming a very consistent points scorer and has now moved ahead of Massa in the championship.

He's quick in the wet too, for me speed in the rain has always been a good indicator of true talent.

Overall given the choice I'd probably still rather someone like Ocon or Wehrlien in that seat but Stroll is a good choice and I'm honestly happier about his side of the garage than the idea of Massa leading the team in 2018.

Van also has more points than Alonso, meaningless to say that stroll moved ahead of massa, everybody knows that it doesn’t reflect their talent

[krisfx]

Stroll's early season woes can be put down to making the jump from F3 to F1 too quickly, he should have spent a year or two learning in GP2 inbetween.

However he has dramatically improved over the season, if you go back over the last 6 races where both have finished Stroll has finished ahead of Massa in 4 out of 6, he's becoming a very consistent points scorer and has now moved ahead of Massa in the championship.

He's quick in the wet too, for me speed in the rain has always been a good indicator of true talent.

Overall given the choice I'd probably still rather someone like Ocon or Wehrlien in that seat but Stroll is a good choice and I'm honestly happier about his side of the garage than the idea of Massa leading the team in 2018.

Van also has more points than Alonso, meaningless to say that stroll moved ahead of massa, everybody knows that it doesn’t reflect their talent

You missed out the part where Alonso has finished just under half the races Vandoorne has, whereas Massa has finished two more than Stroll, giving him plenty of opportunity to be in front.

[Carinni]

Stroll's early season woes can be put down to making the jump from F3 to F1 too quickly, he should have spent a year or two learning in GP2 inbetween.

However he has dramatically improved over the season, if you go back over the last 6 races where both have finished Stroll has finished ahead of Massa in 4 out of 6, he's becoming a very consistent points scorer and has now moved ahead of Massa in the championship.

He's quick in the wet too, for me speed in the rain has always been a good indicator of true talent.

Overall given the choice I'd probably still rather someone like Ocon or Wehrlien in that seat but Stroll is a good choice and I'm honestly happier about his side of the garage than the idea of Massa leading the team in 2018.

Van also has more points than Alonso, meaningless to say that stroll moved ahead of massa, everybody knows that it doesn’t reflect their talent

You missed out the part where Alonso has finished just under half the races Vandoorne has, whereas Massa has finished two more than Stroll, giving him plenty of opportunity to be in front.

U missed puncture n suspension failure? That amounts over 30 pts! I didn’t miss it, so I won’t say van is faster than Alonso.