Mercedes GP 2011

[siskue2005]

@siskue: I think you have understood form subsequent post that "frozen design" does not refer to any rule about homologation, but it's simply a consequence of the fact that you have already started (almost finished) the actual building of the tub.

yup, thank u

[Ferraripilot]

With certain sections of the car being built yet others in the final design process, I am certainly anxious in knowing if they will continue to use some iteration of their front wing again. Will we see a MkIV front wing? With the new low nose configuration I hope to see some clever iteration from Bell that involves some real fresh ideas.

Any ideas on loopholes with the exhaust? I certainly haven't seen or heard anything interesting thus far, which pretty much tells me that aero advantages may be less common between the top teams....

[marcush.]

sorry guys..I´m probably too much into project management terminology there.Of course it´s a design freeze not anything to do with Homologation in this context.Of course the homologation will play its part in determining when you have to freeze your design on certain parts ...as soon as you have done your crash tests and are homologated you cannot change the tested parts anymore or you will haveto redo all those expensive tests if it´s even allowed to homologate more than one set of main structures.

[ESPImperium]

Any ideas on loopholes with the exhaust? I certainly haven't seen or heard anything interesting thus far, which pretty much tells me that aero advantages may be less common between the top teams....

Seemingly the exaust placement is still being argued over, and a specific placement will be announced within the next couple of weeks. I have a suspicion that there will be one position in relation to the centre line simmilar to what the rear crash structure is.

Id suspect this is to make sure there wont be any funku sidepod designs like the U Pods from the MP4/26 that could stall air and thus engage the diffuser and beam wing.

Id recon that something simmilar to what the 2009 cars had will be what is being aimed for.

Personally id have gone for the GP2 style exhaust outlet where the cave hole that has emerged on the RB6/FW33/MVR-02 and many others for cooling at the tight area of the coke bottle, this is all due to the fact the exhausts were to come allong aside the gearbox and emerge at a specific place above the diffuser, but theese pipes were judget to be too long as Mercedes and Renault said they could potentially loose as much as 7% of the engines power from such regs.

However one other area id be happy for the exhausts to exit would be where the Mrecedes early season iteration to exit but ever so slightly higher, maybes 100-150mm of the centre line so the gases dont have as much an effect on the diffuser, and this allows funky U pods as well that are a nice pice of McLaren innovation.

[xpensive]

Scarbs echoes my feelings on this:

Merc GP: Brawn, Bell, Costa, Willis. Technical superteam or too many cooks in the kitchen?

You've got three people, all used to being technical heads in their own right, one at the same team, all with pretty similar sounding, very fudgy job descriptions - Technology Director and Engineering Director? It sounds like the politics have already started with the job titles.

It's worse than that mun, if you include Loic Bigois and Ross Brawn himself you actually have no less than five former Technical Directors within the same team, although most people have long since realized that RB's title was in name only.

This raises serious questions in my mind over RB's basic understanding of structures and the management of such, when there's no chance in hell that anything productive will come out of this mess. Technical-, Technology- and Engineering Directors, what is this, a Monty Python flick or something?

[dren]

We do the same thing at work, reshuffle every few years...same ---, different names. I think it makes some people feel like they did something productive when typically it is counter productive.

At least in Mercedes case, they got two quality engineers and a solid TD.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I see nothing but positives from Costa and Willis joining.

They all know their roles, whats the problem? Think Bell cant manage the situation?

[Ferraripilot]

They all know their roles, whats the problem? Think Bell cant manage the situation?

Exactly. They are in the business of winning, not arguing. They will make it work

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Seem as though once Bell has identified whom he wants where, doing exactly as alot of posters on this thread have directly criticised the team for NOT doing in 2010 and early part of 2011, that suddenly these new staff will all implode on each other due to the shortcomings of Mercedes GP management structure.

Willis and Costa have both been round the block. So has Bell, they would never sign up to some mish mash team that has no correct lines of communication, nor one where the roles are unclear.

To intimate as much is disrespecting Costa, Willis and Bell. They arent the three wise men, but at least all of them have championship winning credibility that should be observed. They arent amatuers.

I guess if Mercedes do end up winning in 2012/13 it will only be because of the Mercedes V8 that has an extra 50+bhp( ). Nothing to do with the leg work Mercedes are putting in now, and certainly nothing to with the management( They only make decisions, right...)

[dren]

I agree they are good additions. But also agree somewhat with x about team structures. But to Mercedes/Brawn's credit, they had to contract and now expand due to resources, so a structure change was probably needed/warranted.

[munudeges]

It's worse than that mun, if you include Loic Bigois and Ross Brawn himself you actually have no less than five former Technical Directors within the same team, although most people have long since realized that RB's title was in name only.

I'd forgotten all about Bigois X. He should have been on borrowed time long ago. Head of Aerodynamics isn't he? Pretty important position I would say, with what, at least three directors above him? Hmmmmm.

Well, the two brought in certainly have track records and I have respect for Willis even though I think he's hopped teams one too many times, but I just can't see how on Earth they will be organised. The team is already extremely top-heavy.

[Richard]

mun - You are re[eating an old mantra past its sell by date.

They now have a clear boss and two deputies to design and deliver the car.

[xpensive]

mun - You are re[eating an old mantra past its sell by date.

They now have a clear boss and two deputies to design and deliver the car.

On paper they might have one TD in charge of two other TD's, but if there's one thing I've learned from a quarter of a century spent in engineering offices, here, there and elsewheres, is that authority in title means little if it's not backed up by reality.

The idea that Bell should be able to tell the likes of Costa and Willis what to do, while being busy keeping Brawn and Bigois out of his hair, is optimistic to xpress it politely. The W03 might become a decent horse, but the W04 will definately be a camel.

In engineering speak, a camel is a horse designed by committee

[munudeges]

Au contraire, I beg to differ. There should be one boss but their job titles tell a very different story, nor do they make it clear what they are actually doing nor where their Head of Aerodynamics fits in who now seems to have additional layers of management all over him. That was all highlighted above.

People are nearly always given job titles like this so it doesn't sound like a demotion from what they were doing before. I thought they would have trouble with this given that they were taking on two new people who had both been technical directors before but weren't going to be at Mercedes.

It's anything but clear because there's not even authority in job titles here.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Brawn has zero to do with design at Brackley.

Bell does that for him.
Costa and Willis head up to different areas for Mercedes that is overseen by Bell who is the technical director.
Bigois himself also reports to Bell.

TDs' dont want to keep people out of their hair, rather it will be vice versa, with Bell inspecting each step, making people warrant their postion within the team. Thats his job and part of the TD job description, its his show at the end of the day even Brawn has made that clear.
We have seen some staff already fall by the wayside in Garood. Loic's head will be on the chopping board too, but that he is still in his position means a)Bell sees them working together and B) there arent any better than Bigois available at present.

I myself have my reservations about Bigois, but im not open to all the facts of what went awry with the W02 and if its Bigois fault.