Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

[PlatinumZealot]

Cooling is not Mclaren's problem. Heating of parts that cannot be easily cooled is their problem.

So what you're saying is cooling is not the problem. The problem is cooling. Hmm...

They are having issues dissipating heat, so cooling is the problem.

Either the cooling system McLaren provided is not working as promised, or they are seeing more heat to certain components than they simulated on the dynos.

Ok, go a little deeper than that. Can you cool your spark plugs insulator by doubling the size of your radiator? Certainly not.
Just the same way you cannot adequately cool your piston crowns or you alternator by opening up holes in your bonnet. Sure, cutting gaping holes might help indirectly a tiny bit... but that is not the major factor for the localized heating. If it was that easy as cutting holes i the engine cover and running bigger rads Honda would have done it (ala torro rosso launch spec).

On another note... the Honda engine is reported to be sensitive to high intake air temepratures. I know Mclaren will have data on that so they can surely tell how good their intercoolers are working compared to last year. Right now we don't know if the Honda has poor inter-cooling or not. They never told the media if the intake temps are poor, only that the engine is very sensitive.

[dren]

If they are saying the ICE is sensitive to intake temps, I am going to assume the intercoolers are not as good as they could be. Packaging trade-off?

The heat issues sound like a MGUK cooling circuit and or system redesign.

[taperoo2k]

That seems a bit far-fetched if I'm honest, other than the case when the Honda components could, for some reason, not be fitted to the car. Other than that, Mclaren would have switched to the Honda parts immediately after theirs would have failed.

I'm guessing they are refering to cooling system components, like radiators, etc. I can't see it being anything more than that, and it still sounds a bit sketchy to me.

Maybe they need to rejig the cooling systems a bit and Honda need to change certain parts on reliability grounds to get the power unit working properly. I expect whatever is going on, is a lot more complicated than the garbled rumours that are probably streaming out of Woking when Big Ron is looking for cracked tiles in the MTC.

I wonder if McLaren Honda will run one MP4-30 in a detuned mode and the other in a mode that's a bit more aggressive (with different aero and cooling packages).
Saving power units for later in the season is probably pointless at this stage (given Mercedes advantage is probably bigger than seen thus far), the longer it takes to get the power unit working the longer it will take to develop the MP4-30's aerodynamics. I'm sure McLaren will hold back until the power unit is working at full pelt.

[turbof1]

Mclaren is definitely going to hate this:

[flmkane]

I tried searching the thread but I could not find the answer to a very basic question.

How on earth did the engine work on the dyno, then overheat badly on the track?

[godlameroso]

Cooling is not Mclaren's problem. Heating of parts that cannot be easily cooled is their problem.

So what you're saying is cooling is not the problem. The problem is cooling. Hmm...

They are having issues dissipating heat, so cooling is the problem.

Either the cooling system McLaren provided is not working as promised, or they are seeing more heat to certain components than they simulated on the dynos.

Ok, go a little deeper than that. Can you cool your spark plugs insulator by doubling the size of your radiator? Certainly not.
Just the same way you cannot adequately cool your piston crowns or you alternator by opening up holes in your bonnet. Sure, cutting gaping holes might help indirectly a tiny bit... but that is not the major factor for the localized heating. If it was that easy as cutting holes i the engine cover and running bigger rads Honda would have done it (ala torro rosso launch spec).

On another note... the Honda engine is reported to be sensitive to high intake air temepratures. I know Mclaren will have data on that so they can surely tell how good their intercoolers are working compared to last year. Right now we don't know if the Honda has poor inter-cooling or not. They never told the media if the intake temps are poor, only that the engine is very sensitive.

If it's anything like my S2000 it is.

[henra]

I tried searching the thread but I could not find the answer to a very basic question.

How on earth did the engine work on the dyno, then overheat badly on the track?

That is assuming it is the engine itself that overheats. The way I understood it it is individual attached/buried components (of the ERS/Electric Motor) that are overheating. These components are often/mostly not directly water cooled but have to rely on internal airflow inside the Chassis. A dyno won't be able to replicate that. And there might be spots inside the Chassis where it will be very difficult to get airflow to or where the entire ambient temperature is higher than thought/required. Red Bull last year was in so far lucky that their heat spot was close to the outside so they could alleviate the Problem by making some cutouts initially. If McLaren is unlucky (and reading between the lines in Arai's Statement Points into that direction) their heat spot is somewhere deep down in the Chassis. The devil's in the Detail....

[godlameroso]

I tried searching the thread but I could not find the answer to a very basic question.

How on earth did the engine work on the dyno, then overheat badly on the track?

While on the dyno the engine isn't being subjected to changing temperature and humidity levels like it is when it's bolted to a car. It's also not being subjected to lateral loading as it is when it's taking curves inside a car generating 3g's or 4g's under braking. Starving parts of the motor of oil can cause hot spots to develop that have a knock on effect to other parts of the engine and ancillaries as they have to work harder to compensate. Sometimes these things don't show up on a dyno but do on an engine that's bolted to a chassis that's turning laps in anger.

[Edax]

I was being kinda smart with my post above. But if you have components that have trouble with heat (overheating) then you certainly have a cooling problem. You have a problem cooling that component.

I read on another forum someone posted the Honda PU ran reliably with 100% Honda parts and at Mercedes 2014 power levels on the dyno, but once it was put in the McLaren chassis, McLaren used some McLaren parts that Honda was not aware of thus leading to some of the problems they are having now.

I find that slightly hard to believe, but you never know.

Why is that? I have been involved in quite a few major engineering projects and I have yet to see an assembly which comes together flawlessy. Especially when you work oversees and have to overcome lingual, cultural and metrix differences. If you have two parties working with different design software, then a mayor snafu is virtually guaranteed.

Just to give an example: engineer A looks at the drawings produced by engineer B half a planet away and sees a part of what he assumes to be hard water ducting. He places a hot component nearby. Engineer B has seen the part of engineer A nearby but doesn't realise it is hot (since CAD does not show temperature). Meanwhile he has to deal with some issues and decides to replace the hard ducting with some hose, but does not update the drawings since the duct is already in the drawing and he is in a hurry.

Thing gets put together, the flexible hose rubs against the hot component, and presto the management has to explain a waterfest to their customer. These things happen, they are somewhat preventable by discipline and communication, but it is hard especially in rushed projects where all components and specs are in a constant flux.

IMO the statement of Honda that they are caught out by last minute design changes is plausible. But then it is a shared responsibility to maintain the consistency of the design, blaming each other is generally not done.

I tried searching the thread but I could not find the answer to a very basic question.

How on earth did the engine work on the dyno, then overheat badly on the track?

I seems that the problem only appeared with the last design changes, since Ron was very happy to point out that they had no heat issues after their outing in Jerez.

“In the limited running we’ve done nothing’s overheating, which is normally what happens when you get it wrong on packaging, we’ve got no burning of heat shields. There is every indication that the mechanical design of the car, packaging wise, has been well executed.”

http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... arly-tests

Perhaps they just rushed the last batch of PIP's without doing full testing on the final config.

[Armour]

From what i have heard Arai mentioned that the engine is reliable and the problem is discharging the 4MJ... it simply overheats ruining the sensors. He also mentioned making the connections/cables fatter to solve the issue. The biggest performance gains in F1 2015 would be too develop a more powerful ERS sytem as this is relatively new to F1 technology and allows scope for improvement, Honda too have expertise in this.

I think Honda may have a monster of an ERS (a sign of this might be the accelerator being kept on under braking? or that it burns every system/sensor it runs through on full discharge?) Battery cooling technology could be a limiting factor if they have pushed the envelope... Batteries dont like to be repeatedly charged and discharged at such heavy loading and if they went for a performance approach they tried inventing something that at the moment isnt working, like trying to cool a GPU with no fans...

[Armour]

p.s. really dont think McHonda would have this many issues unless they are trying something completely new. just have to wait and find out.. so annoying

[ojlopez]

p.s. really dont think McHonda would have this many issues unless they are trying something completely new. just have to wait and find out.. so annoying

I agree with you. Honda has placed a high risk bet, and if it pays off, it will be big time. But if it does not work, the cost will be extremely high

[wesley123]

Mclaren is definitely going to hate this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-uS36V20lF0w/V ... 3ma639.jpg

Doubt it since it's pretty much Red Bull's 2014 front wing

[turbof1]

Mclaren is definitely going to hate this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-uS36V20lF0w/V ... 3ma639.jpg

Doubt it since it's pretty much Red Bull's 2014 front wing

Red Bull will be pissed then since there was not a single picture last year that showed the underbody strakes in such a detail .

[PlatinumZealot]

From what i have heard Arai mentioned that the engine is reliable and the problem is discharging the 4MJ... it simply overheats ruining the sensors. He also mentioned making the connections/cables fatter to solve the issue. The biggest performance gains in F1 2015 would be too develop a more powerful ERS sytem as this is relatively new to F1 technology and allows scope for improvement, Honda too have expertise in this.

I think Honda may have a monster of an ERS (a sign of this might be the accelerator being kept on under braking? or that it burns every system/sensor it runs through on full discharge?) Battery cooling technology could be a limiting factor if they have pushed the envelope... Batteries dont like to be repeatedly charged and discharged at such heavy loading and if they went for a performance approach they tried inventing something that at the moment isnt working, like trying to cool a GPU with no fans...

Ron mentioned that you can barely see the MGU-K on the engine, the way it is tucked in tight.