2017-2020 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
OO7
OO7
171
Joined: 06 Apr 2010, 17:49

Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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jjn9128 wrote:
03 May 2018, 16:09
It's hard to design an F1 car :lol: especially if you want to make something representative. I'm fiddling with something based around a hybrid of the aeroscreen, halo and Indycar screen, with some of the LMP1 rules I like thrown in too. It's made the chassis super wide at the cockpit so I'm toying with the idea of 4WD with the ERS-K moved to the front axle.

The thread is here - just noticed some people complained about all the images going missing :? I'll try to rectify that... no idea what happened.
viewtopic.php?t=26379
I think I remember the images, it was a pretty neat design you had. Although it had a roll hoop the engine air intake wasn't above the driver.

BTW, a good source for storing images is imgur. I use it for all my pictures.

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jjn9128
778
Joined: 02 May 2017, 23:53

Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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Blaze1 wrote:
03 May 2018, 17:40
I think I remember the images, it was a pretty neat design you had. Although it had a roll hoop the engine air intake wasn't above the driver.

BTW, a good source for storing images is imgur. I use it for all my pictures.
I don't think I ever had just a roll hoop - always an overhead air intake. It could always be better - it was just a bunch of simple extrudes with edge fillets, working on making some nice smooth surfaces now.

Just found this (clicking onto Scarb's twitter) based on what we were talking about. Chap did some CFD of cars from 50's through to 90's, they're pretty basic geometries but you see the wider area affected by the wake as the cars get more complex and start diverting the front wheel wake outboard. Brabham BT52 seems to have the smallest wake of the 'modern cars' (front and rear wings with a flat+diffuser underbody), smaller even than those Lotus Venturi cars!
ImageSource:https://community.plm.automation.siemen ... a-p/488689

RE: imgur, I'm signed up for so much stuff now its almost impossible to remember where and what passwords I used. I don't want my info in any more places :lol:
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

NOS_ATX
NOS_ATX
5
Joined: 24 Jan 2012, 16:03

Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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Not sure if you guys can see the images:

I have rendered CG imagination F1 cars based on current regulation and proposed 19 regulation (not the exact dimensions because there is no one yet). This CG car is one of my long term hobby project. I have modified the body based on each year's regulation and interesting designs from real F1 cars.

2019
Image

2018
Image

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djos
113
Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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NOS_ATX wrote:
04 May 2018, 03:55
Not sure if you guys can see the images:

I have rendered CG imagination F1 cars based on current regulation and proposed 19 regulation (not the exact dimensions because there is no one yet). This CG car is one of my long term hobby project. I have modified the body based on each year's regulation and interesting designs from real F1 cars.

2019
https://image.ibb.co/dwmNuS/TMD_19_H_Concept.jpg

2018
https://image.ibb.co/duikES/TMD_18H.jpg
Nice work! can you post some front / rear / side shots of you render too please?

PS, phew, looks like a bullet dodged .. .I really thought were were going to get the fugly snow-plow look from 2010 back again! [-o<

lest we forget ....
Image

EDIT: although thinking about it, the stupidly narrow rear wing probably made the wide front wing look much worse.
"In downforce we trust"

Brenton
Brenton
1
Joined: 17 Dec 2017, 07:28

Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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Interesting views on the philosophy of what F1 cars should and could look like. We have to ask if we want F1 cars appearance to be frozen for eternity... Banned from evolving as it did throughout F1 history. What if we had this view in the 60s? F1 cars would still look like they did in 1967 before wings.

Will F1 cars no longer be shaped like they do because engineers pushed design into a new dimension of performance... But instead shaped based on arbitrary whims of "this winglet is ugly.. let's ban it"? Is our status quo bias and desire to control change taking F1 away from what it was for all of its history? And instead turning into just another spec series where design is based on what looks pretty instead of what pushes the envelope of what humans are capable of?

There's something interesting about how a F1 car part that basically didn't exist in 1967, (front wing for example) was creatively added because engineers were allowed freedom in design... is now a part that is not only mandatory but also with an incredibly specific and complicated set of rules to make it look almost exactly the same for every team's car.

Should front wings look the same in 2019 as 2039 and 2099? Is the goal to decide on what we like a front wing to be and make sure it stays that way forever? Rather than letting the designers change and possibly even remove it over time if it's what makes a car perform better?

I'm not saying that aesthetically driven regulations shouldn't exist, (nor cost driven, or other reason) ... I just think maybe we should be talking about the broad philosophical question of what should and shouldn't influence F1 regulations before deciding on new regulations. Or at least put it out there what direction we want to go in... What the goals are. Is it safety? Aesthetics? Fairness? Economics? Variety? Uniformity?

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djos
113
Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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I think most of us here likely grew up watching F1 in the 80's/90's - as a result most of us think the cars from the era were aesthetically pretty darn perfect.

The first poor decision (aesthetically) was when the FiA narrowed tires in '93.

However the biggest change they made (and imo worst) was in '98 when they reduced width of car from 2 metres to 1.8 metres and brought in the silly grooved tires.

We've been suffering from that mess ever since imo.
"In downforce we trust"

Xwang
Xwang
29
Joined: 02 Dec 2012, 11:12

Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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In the 90s and 90s the front wing was narrower (if I remember correctly it had a span of 140cm) and with its extremities "naturally" aligned to the inner face of the tyres (and more eye pleasing IMHO).

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djos
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Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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Xwang wrote:
05 May 2018, 09:35
In the 90s and 90s the front wing was narrower (if I remember correctly it had a span of 140cm) and with its extremities "naturally" aligned to the inner face of the tyres (and more eye pleasing IMHO).
Agreed, I liked this about them too.
"In downforce we trust"

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jjn9128
778
Joined: 02 May 2017, 23:53

Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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Brenton wrote:
04 May 2018, 20:54
Interesting views on the philosophy of what F1 cars should and could look like. We have to ask if we want F1 cars appearance to be frozen for eternity... Banned from evolving as it did throughout F1 history. What if we had this view in the 60s? F1 cars would still look like they did in 1967 before wings.
I mean... I don't think aesthetics are a consideration for F1 rules per se... the front wing is where it is because it works best in clean air which you get at the front of the car, getting it lower aids the ground effect. In the 80's they worked out putting the rear wing higher gets it into cleaner air - they added the beam wing to reduce pressure behind the car to make the floor work better. The air intake is above the driver for the same reason it operated in clean air and gave nice ram pressure for the N/A cars. As designs converged on these principals the rules were written to limit performance, but became written around the basic shape which had become "how F1 cars look" or the "DNA of F1" or whatever. So now instead of the rules saying - "bodywork can be a maximum of 1400mm wide" the rules specify volumes for "front wing", "rear wing"...etc

All the ailerons and flaps of a fighter jet wouldn't work in F1 because there's a difference between low and high speed aerodynamics, well it may work but it'd be inefficient, so you're kinda stuck playing about with variations on front wing/rear wing/underbody. Look at a LMP1, Formula E (gen 2) or an Indycar - they produce downforce in the same way as F1 for the same reasons, albeit with subtle differences in implementation. Plus they have varying degrees of covered wheels for efficiency.

We know more about aerodynamics now than in the 60's so there's less experimentation to do, just refinement of existing concepts. Let's not forget how slapdash some aero in the past was - F1 cars were sculpted by designers (even as near as the 90's - some better at understanding aero than others) rather than defined and tested by scores of aerodynamicists.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

NL_Fer
NL_Fer
82
Joined: 15 Jun 2014, 09:48

Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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Hurray even wider front wings. We will see some more carbon flying and nose changes while close racing in ‘19.


Sevach
Sevach
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Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 17:00

Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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[media]https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/993429691192274945[/media]

Breakdown of the new regulations.

Xwang
Xwang
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Joined: 02 Dec 2012, 11:12

Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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Why a bigger front span if they want to reduce the flow in the outer part of the front tyres?
A smaller span should force teams to direct air between front tyres (as it was in the 90s). Do you agree?

Sevach
Sevach
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Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 17:00

Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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Xwang wrote:
08 May 2018, 20:34
Why a bigger front span if they want to reduce the flow in the outer part of the front tyres?
A smaller span should force teams to direct air between front tyres (as it was in the 90s). Do you agree?
I don't get it either.

Mamba
Mamba
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Joined: 22 Apr 2014, 16:36

Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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Sevach wrote:
08 May 2018, 20:36
Xwang wrote:
08 May 2018, 20:34
Why a bigger front span if they want to reduce the flow in the outer part of the front tyres?
A smaller span should force teams to direct air between front tyres (as it was in the 90s). Do you agree?
I don't get it either.
I don't think they get it either... Narrower makes so much more sense. It will not only look better (minor issue) but there is no way in hell the teams can build any out-wash-like front wings if the wing is between the front tyres!

MAMBA