Mclaren Honda 2015

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
User avatar
mclaren111
280
Joined: 06 Apr 2014, 10:49
Location: Shithole - South Africa

Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

Post

Good article:

July 16, 2015 by Joe Saward
There is a great deal of silly and irrelevant chatter at the moment about the McLaren-Honda alliance. Obviously, things are not where the team would like them to be, but no doubt Honda engineers are working around the clock to fix the problems with the power unit.

One does not need to be a Rhodes Scholar to see that Honda underestimated the job required, or perhaps went down a path that was later deemed a bad idea and it has been playing catch-up ever since. The law of diminishing returns means that given time the manufacturers will all end up at the same sort of level of performance, at which point Honda’s philosophy of doing things its own way will pay off because you never get ahead by copying, only by finding different solutions.

There is no guarantee that this will lead to Honda domination in F1, but those who underestimate the intellect and resources that Honda has are unwise. Of course there is frustration about the current situation, but the “win together, lose together” approach is way more intelligent – and graceful – than Red Bull’s public flogging of Renault, which appears rather rude after the French company helped the team to four consecutive World Championships. I guess that if one is looking for gracious behaviour one days not hire Helmut Marko. If Red Bull ends up without an engine partner it has only itself to blame.

McLaren is quite right to argue that a team without manufacturer backing is not going to win the title – being a customer is always just a stepping stone. Those who hark back to “the good old days” of Cosworth are living in the past. F1 is now too big and too valuable a communication tool to have specialist engine companies beating manufacturers. That time has gone.

Honda is a good choice for McLaren, given the Japanese firm’s history in the sport and the mentality at Honda. It would be good to see more manufacturers coming in and teaming up with the likes of Williams and Lotus, but that is unlikely to happen until there are some new attitudes on the sport. However that should not stop teams going and banging on the doors at Ford, GM, Toyota, Hyundai, Peugeot or Porsche and arguing the case of F1. It is not an easy sell, but if you don’t try, you don’t have the chance to fail.

We all know that the sport itself needs some changes – and we know also that they will come – and having more manufacturers will only help that happen. McLaren went out and sold Honda on a deal – and that is what the other teams shoul do.

mrluke
mrluke
33
Joined: 22 Nov 2013, 20:31

Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

Post

Thunders wrote:Meaning it runs at 100% of what is achieveable right now doesn't mean it's 100% of what the Engine is capable of. Both are 100%, but vastly different outcomes still. Nobody (except Honda and some People at McLaren) know where they are right now. So while we can discuss it all well and good it becomes a Problem when actual Numbers get involved. So i tend to only get involved in basic dicussions about the PU. WAY too many unknown Factors.
Clearly the PU is already at "what the engine is capable of" as it is regularly failing.

If we define 100% as the most power possible from a perfect PU we would be somewhere well over 1,000bhp.

Honda are achieving the maximum from their current design and need a new design to increase the maximum.

Everybody can quite clearly see were Mclaren Honda are at the moment.

User avatar
Phil
66
Joined: 25 Sep 2012, 16:22

Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

Post

I think what some here are referring to is that the engine may be running at 100%, but it's more akin to running with the brakes on partial lock. In other words, the ICE design might be adequate for purpose, but as long as the ERS isn't, the ICE is handicapped by it, thus using more fuel or running at a lower efficiency. Therefore, they are obviously still using all the fuel, but are down on power all the same irregardless if the design of the ICE is good or bad. Once the ERS improves, so should the ICE and its overall performance. It's hard to gauge performance if one part of the package is not running as it should, because it's compromising the entire chain of components.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

User avatar
Andres125sx
166
Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

Post

MrLuke what you say is correct, but I ´d say when people talk about 100% of the PU, that´s assuming no reliability issues so the PU can work as it was designed to work.

Mercedes is getting 100% of their PU because they don´t have reliability issues so they can use the PU exactly as it was designed to work, while Honda has reliability issues so it´s not used as it was designed to work, it´s below its 100% to avoid failures

Then we can discuss if the Honda PU can work as it was designed to work or it has some design flaw wich make it imposible to achieve its full potential, but that´s a different matter wich IMO is not worth discussing because nobody outside Honda will ever know

Facts Only
Facts Only
188
Joined: 03 Jul 2014, 10:25

Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

Post

kaepernickus wrote: ... any sentences like "They have messed it up, invested too little and will never get close to podiums or improve at all." as well as super positive "Will be as good as or even better than the Mercedes engine." are pure speculation and I'm honestly getting tired of reading posts and articles presenting pure speculation as facts.
Any team/manufacturer of Mclaren Honda's size who has got to the mid-season point with one points scoring finish, masses of failures, a huge time deficit and a couple of failures to even participate in sessions has messed up, thats not speculation.

Whether or not the end point is deemed a success or failure the current situation is a complete and utter mess.
kaepernickus wrote:anyone from the outside
[/quote]

Speak for yourself.

On a more upbeat note I spoke to a Mclaren staff member (engineer not press BS'er) the other day and he said people were still pretty upbeat down there.
"A pretentious quote taken out of context to make me look deep" - Some old racing driver

User avatar
Wazari
623
Joined: 17 Jun 2015, 15:49

Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

Post

My nephew is tight lipped as he should be. They make you sign NDA's in blood and any leaks can lead to dismissal as best and legal persecution at worst. I just know he is working on the ICE combustion chamber design and feels that the overall design concept of the PU is sound.

It is also my understanding that McLaren did leave some wind tunnel time on the table feeling very confident about the MP4-30 based on CFD results and Prodromou was the primary decision maker to forge ahead with more wind tunnel time available. This of course is based on rumors.

I know working for Honda that they are a stubborn, "won't quit" attitude type of company. In my experience Toyota was definitely not that way. Honda sees recruiting for outside help as a weakness and as I have mentioned before, this is both good and bad. Hindsight is 20-20 and I'm sure looking back Honda would have poured more resources from the get go. However in F1 there is no looking back so I'm sure Honda will forge ahead and strive to achieve more performance as soon as possible. They don't want to be a laughing stock and give credit to McLaren for remaining positive with regards to their relationship to Honda.
“If Honda does not race, there is no Honda.”

“Success represents the 1% of your work which results from the 99% that is called failure.”

-- Honda Soichiro

dr_cooke
dr_cooke
2
Joined: 12 Mar 2008, 14:43

Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

Post

Facts Only wrote:
Any team/manufacturer of Mclaren Honda's size who has got to the mid-season point with one points scoring finish, masses of failures, a huge time deficit and a couple of failures to even participate in sessions has messed up, thats not speculation.

Whether or not the end point is deemed a success or failure the current situation is a complete and utter mess.

Actually 2 point scoring finishes

Jef Patat
Jef Patat
61
Joined: 06 May 2011, 14:40

Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

Post

Andres125sx wrote:Mercedes is getting 100% of their PU because they don´t have reliability issues so they can use the PU exactly as it was designed to work, while Honda has reliability issues so it´s not used as it was designed to work, it´s below its 100% to avoid failures.
Indeed, to add to your point of view, Mercedes is said to have a qualifying mode in which they can turn up their engine. Meaning "going over a 100%".

GoranF1
GoranF1
155
Joined: 16 Dec 2014, 12:53
Location: Zagreb,Croatia

Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

Post

Are they running ERS at every other lap,or just detuned on every lap.....cuz they are not particular fast at every other lap either!?
"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication & competence."

KeiKo403
KeiKo403
7
Joined: 18 Feb 2011, 00:16

Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

Post

Jef Patat wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:Mercedes is getting 100% of their PU because they don´t have reliability issues so they can use the PU exactly as it was designed to work, while Honda has reliability issues so it´s not used as it was designed to work, it´s below its 100% to avoid failures.
Indeed, to add to your point of view, Mercedes is said to have a qualifying mode in which they can turn up their engine. Meaning "going over a 100%".
More like the quali mode is 100% (although it's prob 98% as they have so much speed in hand over everyone else) and they race at about 95%.
100% is the absolute limit.

User avatar
diffuser
230
Joined: 07 Sep 2012, 13:55
Location: Montreal

Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

Post

ajnšpric_pumpa wrote:Are they running ERS at every other lap,or just detuned on every lap.....cuz they are not particular fast at every other lap either!?

He said Kers, so that is the charging from braking. They still have the other charging...Silverstone isn't a big braking track. So it really didn't make too much sense to me.
That generator also serves as a motor...It would make more sense that they can not use that motor over a full lap.. for whatever reason. Also when he says every other lap I think he means they can't use it for more than half a lap every lap.

Jef Patat
Jef Patat
61
Joined: 06 May 2011, 14:40

Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

Post

KeiKo403 wrote:
Jef Patat wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:Mercedes is getting 100% of their PU because they don´t have reliability issues so they can use the PU exactly as it was designed to work, while Honda has reliability issues so it´s not used as it was designed to work, it´s below its 100% to avoid failures.
Indeed, to add to your point of view, Mercedes is said to have a qualifying mode in which they can turn up their engine. Meaning "going over a 100%".
More like the quali mode is 100% (although it's prob 98% as they have so much speed in hand over everyone else) and they race at about 95%.
100% is the absolute limit.
That's just nitpicking, you probably got the point anyway. There's a reason I put that between quotes. It's just magic talk with numbers. PU efficiency is 105% = cumbustion efficiency 75% + 30% KERS. And in qualifying they allow the KERS to slightly overheat to get 35%.

KeiKo403
KeiKo403
7
Joined: 18 Feb 2011, 00:16

Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

Post

Dude, I genuinely wasn't nitpicking. I just see it as 100% is the limit. The only way that limit can be broken is by breaking the rules (increase fuel flow), or applying upgrade tokens to the PU, neither of which has been done.

If they would increase the KERS from 30% to 35% then that means that the 35% is the new top limit of that component and by running at 30% they aren't giving in total 100% from the PU.

Anyway, enough about the Merc PU which isn't in the back of the McHonda.

User avatar
Andres125sx
166
Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

Post

It depends on what do you consider the limit, as it´s not the same running and engine or motor for 2 minutes (one qualifying lap) than 2 hours (race). The limits are different

Technically you should say it´s working at 100% on both situations, because limit is different depending on how long it will work at that level. But since it´s working at different levels, it´s more easy to understand saying it´s working at 100% in race config and 105% in qualy config, or 100% in qualy config and 95% in race config, what you prefer depending on what do you consider the upper limit, if the max it can provide, or the max it can provide for a sustained period

Anycase I agree this is nitpicking, mainly because Honda is far for this on both configurations :P

Jef Patat
Jef Patat
61
Joined: 06 May 2011, 14:40

Re: Mclaren Honda 2015

Post

Andres125sx wrote:because Honda is far for this on both configurations :P
Let's hope so, let's hope it changes, and preferably fast, by now I'm almost ready for my MCL-Honda fan sabatical :wink:
Both cars in top 13, that would be really nice.