Safety of car recovery (and trucks on circuits)

[Andres125sx]

Diggers usually work on very rough environements with very irregular terrain, mud, etc. so they need very good clearance. Not the case when they´re on a track, so they don´t need that front/rear clearance at all, those that work on tracks could use bumpers all around perfectly

They need the ground clearance because of the gravel traps. If you start building safe zones around the vehicles you increase the chance of them to get stuck. So when one is stuck you now have a bigger problem.

Sorry, but diggers were not designed for gravel traps, but for irregular terrains where they need a good clearance to climb/descend ramps, and also to do not get stuck with rain and mud

Gravel traps are a very easy terrain for diggers, flat and no mud, they could use bumpers all around perfectly.

I´d also like to know your thought process when you decide between modifying a truck for millions of dollars

Million dollars? We´re talking about soldering some bumpers to the crane, they do not need to be road homologated, with a good soldering work tested properly it´s more than enough

And since they´re owned by the track, any series racing at that track will benefit from safer cranes

I´d also like to know your thought process when you decide between modifying a truck for millions of dollars (which it should be said are trucks owned by the track, not FIA) to a 60km/h slow zone.
I just want to know how you come up with an answer that is several orders of magnitude more expensive, won´t stop F1 cars hitting solid objects at well over 100km/h and is just generally a huge hassle to do as opposed to a system already in place in motorsport, tried and tested with success that would even allow the Safety Car to stay in 99% of the times because it´s rendered useless.

How does these barriers increase the safety of the marshals when F1 cars are hauling at them at over 100km/h?

Maybe if you start reading what you´re replying....

I personally think best option would be using bumpers for the cranes (that´s a must no matter what more options are used), I´d force Pirelli to develop his wet tires much more, new regulation about minimal free height, and maybe limiting track speed when situation is very difficult like when hard rain.

Speed limited sector is the best idea when raining, but when it´s dry it´s overkilled IMHO. For those situations safer cranes will be more than enough I think. But with heavy rain limited sectors will be the best hands down. And I don´t think they need anything special to implement it, FIA could check after the race with telemetry. If someone broke the rule, heavy penalization for next race or disqualifying from this one. That should be more than enough

Double yellows are some sort of a joke right now, in a sport where half a second is too much, you can´t expect drivers will slow down too much with double yellows if it´s no specified how much they must slow down

I´m dying to know this.

I hope you feel better now

[SectorOne]

Unless your are suggesting the track has lines drawn on it?

I did yes. My second post on this page:
"You give them a sign each and a line on track."

But how do the drivers known which line is the start of the zone?

Flag men, big sign similar to a DRS sign and a line on the track.
On top of that there will be radio communications letting the driver know what area is affected.
Arguably you can push it even further with the new displays, pop up an infographic on it showing the danger zone.

What happens to drivers already in that zone when the limit is switched on?

No throttle input and pit limiter on straight away. He´ll probably gain a little bit but since it´s a random thing you can´t plan for it.

I should also say a local one is not the only alternative, as Tim pointed out, you could use a full course speed limit.

[SectorOne]

Diggers usually work on very rough environements with very irregular terrain, mud, etc. so they need very good clearance. Not the case when they´re on a track, so they don´t need that front/rear clearance at all, those that work on tracks could use bumpers all around perfectly

They need the ground clearance because of the gravel traps. If you start building safe zones around the vehicles you increase the chance of them to get stuck. So when one is stuck you now have a bigger problem.

Sorry, but diggers were not designed for gravel traps, but for irregular terrains where they need a good clearance to climb/descend ramps, and also to do not get stuck with rain and mud

Yup, similar to a gravel trap designed to stop Formula 1 cars.

Million dollars? We´re talking about soldering some bumpers to the crane, they do not need to be road homologated, with a good soldering work tested properly it´s more than enough

This isnt´t hillbilly racing in the desert here, you need to do crash tests and dump a lot of money into research to come up with a good solution.

You think the ones they use on the road when it´s construction work was something someone drew on a piece of paper and everyone said "yea looks good let´s build it"?

They cost millions in development crashing various different cars followed by several iterations of trial and error.
Its not cheap by any means.

I personally think best option would be using bumpers for the cranes (that´s a must no matter what more options are used), I´d force Pirelli to develop his wet tires much more, new regulation about minimal free height, and maybe limiting track speed when situation is very difficult like when hard rain.

I did, still doesn´t explain it because F1 cars go even faster when it´s dry. A lot faster.
Crashes do not specifically happen when it´s raining, everything from brake failures to driver errors causes massive impacts with barriers.

Speed limited sector is the best idea when raining, but when it´s dry it´s overkilled IMHO. For those situations safer cranes will be more than enough I think.

Still haven´t dealt with the fact that you can´t just weld on some bars and think it´s ok.
Again, it´s not hillbilly racing, it´s Formula 1 with extremely fast cars.
Some homemade analysis with a CAD program won´t do.
You need to take F1 cars and launch them at it to get real data.
You know as well as me that F1 cars are not cheap.

I hope you feel better now

Not yet but i´m getting there.

Edit: Basically your idea would be like saying "Ebola in Africa?" well let´s just put the whole continent in quarantine instead of going down there and fixing the actual problem".

Edit2: And still, the millions spent on crash testing the tow truck still won´t do anything to a marshal having an F1 car launched at him.

[Fulcrum]

Another alternative would be to enable a kill switch whenever a situation deemed dangerous is encountered. The kill switch would force all cars to a standstill in-situ, wherever they happen to be on track.

This would not only preserve race order, but maintain the current race evolution. Cars could idle in mechanical/electrical neutral for so long as the situation is deemed to be critical. Thereafter they could be allowed to return to the pit-lane at the mandated speed limit if the situation is really bad, or the race could simply be resumed as is.

Incredibly dangerous. What do you think would happen if you cut the engine while the car was driving through a high speed corner? Look up lift-off oversteer.

Very enlightening.

To clarify, I wasn't implying cars should simply be 'cut-off' and allowed to coast to a stop. The kill switch could effectively be an ABS/EBD-like procedure bringing all cars to a controlled standstill. Drivers would retain steering input, and would obviously be warned of the impending over-ride.

[GitanesBlondes]

Another alternative would be to enable a kill switch whenever a situation deemed dangerous is encountered. The kill switch would force all cars to a standstill in-situ, wherever they happen to be on track.

This would not only preserve race order, but maintain the current race evolution. Cars could idle in mechanical/electrical neutral for so long as the situation is deemed to be critical. Thereafter they could be allowed to return to the pit-lane at the mandated speed limit if the situation is really bad, or the race could simply be resumed as is.

Incredibly dangerous. What do you think would happen if you cut the engine while the car was driving through a high speed corner? Look up lift-off oversteer.

Very enlightening.

To clarify, I wasn't implying cars should simply be 'cut-off' and allowed to coast to a stop. The kill switch could effectively be an ABS/EBD-like procedure bringing all cars to a controlled standstill. Drivers would retain steering input, and would obviously be warned of the impending over-ride.

When Le Mans has a speed limit, why would you bother reinventing the wheel when something that has proven to work in real world conditions exists?

[Andres125sx]

Yup, similar to a gravel trap designed to stop Formula 1 cars.

No, not even close. Gravel is used to avoid mud, and it´s mud what makes things a lot more dificult for any vehicle. The terraing get loose, soft and vehicles get stuck. Gravel is used to avoid this, so no, gravel traps are very easy for any digger

Million dollars? We´re talking about soldering some bumpers to the crane, they do not need to be road homologated, with a good soldering work tested properly it´s more than enough

This isnt´t hillbilly racing in the desert here, you need to do crash tests and dump a lot of money into research to come up with a good solution.

You think the ones they use on the road when it´s construction work was something someone drew on a piece of paper and everyone said "yea looks good let´s build it"?

[...]

Again, it´s not hillbilly racing, it´s Formula 1 with extremely fast cars.
Some homemade analysis with a CAD program won´t do.
You need to take F1 cars and launch them at it to get real data.
You know as well as me that F1 cars are not cheap.

They don´t need to absorb any energy, they only need to be rigid enough (as it is any other part of the crane where a car my impact), and that´s fairly easy to achieve with some basic soldering

[SectorOne]

I disagree, there´s a reason they don´t have normal trucks running around in the gravel traps.
It´s because they will get stuck. If you start soldering on bars and stuff it too will get stuck.

They don´t need to absorb any energy,

Oh yes they definitely do.

You´re not trying to fix the problem, only the symptoms as someone said.

GitanesBlondes is right on the money. The system is already in place, it works brilliantly, it´s by F1 standards extremely cheap and it´s extremely safe.

the soldered bars still do not help marshals on track. Why are you ignoring this all the time?
It was pure luck that a driver wasn´t hit this time. Would your idea be to solder bars on someone´s face next time?

[Phil]

I disagree, there´s a reason they don´t have normal trucks running around in the gravel traps.
It´s because they will get stuck. If you start soldering on bars and stuff it too will get stuck.

I don't think it's exactly as if a vehicle that drives into a gravel trap in them actually sink in to the point that it would require such a high clearance. I don't think anyone is suggesting that a tractor would need to have the same clearance as an F1 car, but had the clearance of the tractor been lower at the point where Bianchi smashed into it, more energy of the impact would have been absorbed by the car itself. The way he hit however, the car more or less went under it until the sidepod connected and lifted the whole tractor up at which point it destroyed pretty much anything in its path (like the airbox just above the drivers cabin).

I'm willing to bet that a lower clearance would have either made the car bounce off and redirected some of the energy. It would have been bad regardless, but no doubt the way Bianchis car slid under it, was the worst possible outcome. The height of the tractor clearance is at the worst possible height to any driver in a F1 car.

[i70q7m7ghw]

Unless your are suggesting the track has lines drawn on it?

I did yes. My second post on this page:
"You give them a sign each and a line on track."

But how do the drivers known which line is the start of the zone?

Flag men, big sign similar to a DRS sign and a line on the track.
On top of that there will be radio communications letting the driver know what area is affected.
Arguably you can push it even further with the new displays, pop up an infographic on it showing the danger zone.

What happens to drivers already in that zone when the limit is switched on?

No throttle input and pit limiter on straight away. He´ll probably gain a little bit but since it´s a random thing you can´t plan for it.

I should also say a local one is not the only alternative, as Tim pointed out, you could use a full course speed limit.

It's still not fool proof. How will the speed limit be measured? My understanding is even the pit lane speed limit is not 100% enforced, because it's not possible to accurately measure a cars speed along the entire length.

Ultimately, how is this any different to asking drivers to slow down for yellow flags? The only difference is your saying this would be enforced, and there in lies the root of the problem. Yellow flags aren't being enforced strictly enough.

[strad]

A friend with that F1 app says he went off at 213kph (132mph).

[SectorOne]

Sector, have you ever been near one of these gravel traps?

Yes, although not an F1 gravel trap if they differ, which i think they do.

It's not exactly as if a vehicle that drive in them actually sink in to the point that it would require such a high clearance.

Except that you have a 4-5 tonne thing rolling out, picking up another 750kg and then expecting to drive away with no issues at all. It´s not just a couple grams of rock panned out over tarmac, it´s an actual sandpit.

I´ve driven similar things on construction sites and they don´t have these tires and that ground clearance just because of mud.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that a tractor would need to have the same clearance as an F1 car, but had the clearance of the tractor been lower at the point where Bianchi smashed into it, more energy of the impact would have been absorbed by the car itself. The way he hit however, the car more or less went under it until the sidepod connected and lifted the whole tractor up at which point it destroyed pretty much anything in its path (like the airbox just above the drivers cabin).

I get that, but you still need to have very low bars to actually catch the F1 car.
The lower they are the higher the chance of you having to go get another tow truck to tow the tow truck.

The height of the tractor clearance is at the worst possible height to any driver in a F1 car.

So you lower the speed because this time he hit the truck, next time someone will hit a human being.
Then what? Crash test humans? Make them wear bomb suits so when they fly around they can land a bit more safely?

How about a speed limit? It´s already been tried, it works, they have data on it.
Why not go after the root of the problem?

[SectorOne]

A friend with that F1 app says he went off at 213kph (132mph).

203km/h is the highest recording from the app. Some analysis done by Blanchimont and Shreiker say the actual impact speed was around 100km/h. Say 70-110km/h to cover both.

[SectorOne]

It's still not fool proof. How will the speed limit be measured? My understanding is even the pit lane speed limit is not 100% enforced, because it's not possible to accurately measure a cars speed along the entire length.

It´s more then good enough though. There´s nobody that´s gonna run through the pitlane at 90km/h while everyone else is running 80km/h.

Ultimately, how is this any different to asking drivers to slow down for yellow flags? The only difference is your saying this would be enforced, and there in lies the root of the problem. Yellow flags aren't being enforced strictly enough.

Telling a driver to slow down is a grey meaning. what does it even mean? How much is "slow down"?
A pit limiter speed is black and white, telling a driver to be cautious is the opposite.

I´ve written way too much in this thread, repeating myself all the time so i´ll leave with this quote.
Hyper-rational thinking.

When Le Mans has a speed limit, why would you bother reinventing the wheel when something that has proven to work in real world conditions exists?

[The_table]

So why did they remove the gravel traps , i would think they slow down a car much faster than asphalt run offs , especially in the rain ?

(about the limiter)
Maybe you can't measure the average speed of a car in the "danger area" very accurately but you can check if the driver pressed the "limiter button".

[langwadt]

Unless your are suggesting the track has lines drawn on it?

I did yes. My second post on this page:
"You give them a sign each and a line on track."

But how do the drivers known which line is the start of the zone?

Flag men, big sign similar to a DRS sign and a line on the track.
On top of that there will be radio communications letting the driver know what area is affected.
Arguably you can push it even further with the new displays, pop up an infographic on it showing the danger zone.

What happens to drivers already in that zone when the limit is switched on?

No throttle input and pit limiter on straight away. He´ll probably gain a little bit but since it´s a random thing you can´t plan for it.

I should also say a local one is not the only alternative, as Tim pointed out, you could use a full course speed limit.

It's still not fool proof. How will the speed limit be measured? My understanding is even the pit lane speed limit is not 100% enforced, because it's not possible to accurately measure a cars speed along the entire length.

Ultimately, how is this any different to asking drivers to slow down for yellow flags? The only difference is your saying this would be enforced, and there in lies the root of the problem. Yellow flags aren't being enforced strictly enough.

imagine if there was no speed limit in the pitlane and they just had to slow down to a "safe speed"
They would be flying through the pits, it is their job to go as fast as they can with in the rules