Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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Andres125sx
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Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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bhall II wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:...but if the solution is not constant (same for all cars), but only applied when necessary (fan connected when in dirty air), then development will never negate that, because it´s not posible for a car without a fan to create same DF than a car identical to the first, but with a fan. No development will negate this not even in a century.
Then explain the precipitous decline in overtaking from 2011 to 2015 - the sharpest in 30 years - despite the ubiquity of selectively-applied DRS.

http://i.imgur.com/czgQvyj.jpg
Or better, you explain to me the reason since DRS was first used, overtaking numbers are way higher than before, despite the precipitous decline in overtaking from 2011 to 2015 .

Many factors does affect overtaking, we agreed at that point long ago. That´s the reason for the decline. But even so, thanks to a selectively-applied DRS overtaking numbers are still far higher than before DRS. Around double than before DRS to be more precise, and that´s AFTER the decline
bhall II wrote:
But that didn´t stop you before claimming the only solution wich could be effective is standarizing cars.... How´s that Bhall? We can´t know the solution because nobody studied the subject deep enough? Or the only solution is standarizing cars?
Without a broad understanding of the factors involved, blindly implementing changes can easily make the problem worse...
Obviously. But we do know dirty air is a big handicap, so I wouldn´t say implementing something to solve this known problem is blindly implementing changes, but more of solving known problems before facing the unknown ones.

I never said this would solve all overtaking problems, but it would solve one of those overtaking problems at least. Even when we don´t know them all.

When you have an ecuation with three unknown quantities, you cannot solve it direcly. Before solving "z" you first need to solve "x". Once you only have one unknown quantity, it is MUCH easier to understand where that unknown quantity came from. What you say is like saying: "I don´t know what´s Z so there´s no point solving X and Y".

Sorry for the basic english, I never studied maths in english, but I hope you get what I mean
Last edited by Andres125sx on 20 Apr 2016, 13:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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ups, hit the quote button instead of the editting one :oops:

bhall II
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Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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miqi23 wrote:Yes, I read that earlier. I know what Mr Symonds said! He says that 'they' don't understand it BUT why do you think that is?
Sorry. I guess I read incredulity in your post where none really existed.

My view is that most people tend to put waaaaaaaaaaay too much emphasis on the aerodynamic aspects of overtaking, because "dirty air" seems to be the only variable everyone can agree upon. In reality, it's much more complicated, and it's entirely possible, if not probable, that wake turbulence is the least important factor, which is the way I tend to see it.

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turbof1
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Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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Andres wrote:Obviously. But we do know dirty air is a big handicap, so I wouldn´t say implementing something to solve this known problem is blindly implementing changes
Well, it actually is. We had solutions before which limited diffuser height and other solutions which reduced downforce, but which actually compounded the problem. There are interactions involved we didn't know in the past and there are probably a lot more interactions currently we still do not know.

It's why experienced people like Symonds literally state "we don't really understand, we like to understand it".
Bhall II wrote:My view is that most people tend to put waaaaaaaaaaay too much emphasis on the aerodynamic aspects of overtaking, because "dirty air" seems to be the only variable everyone can agree upon. In reality, it's much more complicated, and it's entirely possible, if not probable, that wake turbulence is the least important factor, which is the way I tend to see it.
I was skeptical about this view point a few days ago. But the more I think about it, the more I start to believe this might infact be something to seriously consider. I think the best way to tackle this is to also include historical data of each and every overtake and look to what the conditions were: environment conditions, tyres, damage, performance difference, etc.
#AeroFrodo

bhall II
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Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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Andres125sx wrote: Or better, you explain to me the reason since DRS was first used, overtaking numbers are way higher than before, despite the precipitous decline in overtaking from 2011 to 2015 .
How are you able to discern between the impact of DRS and that of Pirellotteri tires? The only certainty is that overtaking declines despite the use of both. (The increase in overtaking this year concurrent with the introduction of an all-new range of tires suggests tires have played a much more prominent role.)
But we do know dirty air is a big handicap, so I wouldn´t say implementing something to solve this known problem is blindly implementing changes, but more of solving known problems before facing the unknown ones.
Do you know precisely what percentage of the problem is aerodynamic? Do you know precisely how wake turbulence is a handicap? Do you know precisely how potential solutions will work?

Ill-informed hubris, which seems to be F1's trademark, rarely solves more problems than it creates.

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WaikeCU
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Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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I think it's also the amount of detail on the aero parts these days that cause difficulties in following cars around the track.

from 2009:
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to 2016:
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The many aero elements and detailing may have a fair share in creating turbulent air.

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FW17
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Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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bhall II wrote:Do you know precisely what percentage of the problem is aerodynamic? Do you know precisely how wake turbulence is a handicap? Do you know precisely how potential solutions will work?

Why is that so difficult to quantify? In fact I am sure BMW Sauber ran 2 scale models in there tunnel to study the loss of down force.

Teams have even tried to optimism designs of there to cars to perform in turbulent air flow rather than for peak down force in perfect conditions.

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Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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FW17 wrote:Why is that so difficult to quantify? In fact I am sure BMW Sauber ran 2 scale models in there tunnel to study the loss of down force.
Beats the hell out of me. But, given the ineffective nature of the solutions produced by the OWG, even real-world data doesn't seem to be very helpful...
grandprix.com, Oct 1, 2008 wrote:Once they had established the basic data and the targets required, the OWG asked Fondtech to devise means by which the desired changes might be achieved. Ferrari provided baseline data for the two models that Fondtech ran in tandem in its 25 per cent moving ground wind tunnel. They in turn had drawn on an experiment [conducted by the team] at Monza in 2004, when it ran two cars in tandem round the autodromo. This full-scale Ferrari data was used to validate the twin model behaviour in the tunnel, in turn to validate the entire experimental technique. This was a very important step, that justified the use of tunnel rather than CFD
(It should be getting easier and easier for people to see just how little overtaking is truly affected by aero.)

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Andres125sx
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Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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turbof1 wrote:
Andres wrote:Obviously. But we do know dirty air is a big handicap, so I wouldn´t say implementing something to solve this known problem is blindly implementing changes
Well, it actually is. We had solutions before which limited diffuser height and other solutions which reduced downforce, but which actually compounded the problem...
.... as they always tried to reduce dirty air, when they really don´t understand what´s dirty air and how does in affect the trailing car (upwash, inwash, etc.)

So trying to reduce something you don´t fully understand will inevitably be a fail.

But I´m not trying to understand or reduce dirty air, I´m trying to increase total DF so even when aero will continue at poor levels of efficiency because of dirty air and our poor understanding about it, total DF will be increased. We don´t fully understand dirty air, how it´s created, and how does it affect the trailing car, but we do know for sure when a car is trying to overtake, a sudden drop in DF will be VERY harmful for his attempt, so IMHO we know more than enough to solve this part of the problem, as easy as implementing active aero to increase DF potential when in dirty air

As I´ve repeated ad nauseam, I´m not expecting this to magically solve every overtaking problem, but if it solves one part of those problems, then it will be a step forward.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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bhall II wrote:
Andres125sx wrote: Or better, you explain to me the reason since DRS was first used, overtaking numbers are way higher than before, despite the precipitous decline in overtaking from 2011 to 2015 .
How are you able to discern between the impact of DRS and that of Pirellotteri tires? The only certainty is that overtaking declines despite the use of both.
Yes and no.

Yes because that really is a certainty, and no because that´s not the only certainty, another certainty is that despite the decline, there are still around double overtakes now than before, so it was effective and keep effective after several seasons.


And yes, IMO Pirelloteri have a deeper impact than DRS as they tend to mix the whole grid with different strategies as we can see in some races like China, with both McLarens in 4th place at some point of the race, or a Manor in 5th. That obviously causes lots of overtakes.

bhall II
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Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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To claim something is certain means you should be able to point to hard data that supports your conclusion. So, let's have it.

For that matter...
Andres125sx wrote:...IMHO we know more than enough to solve this part of the problem, as easy as implementing active aero to increase DF potential when in dirty air
To claim something is possible, let alone "easy," means you should be able to explain the science behind it. So, let's have that, too.

Yes, we've once again reached the portion of the program where it's incumbent upon you to put forth more than a thesis statement. You have to explain the specifics of your ideas.

Just to sorta move things along: it's not clear how a fan car can maintain aero balance when running in another car's wake; it's not clear how active aero/suspension can increase downforce when running in another car's wake; and it's not clear how anything that doesn't standardize a significant chunk of the car will have any effect at all.

mrluke
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Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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We know from the past that non spec cars can produce plenty of overtakes.

Many of the best battles seem to come from the 80s which historically appeared to be a period of many overtakes.

What we don't know is why this was possible. The situation then and now is very different but overall downforce levels are probably not that far apart. So its not downforce itself which is the issue. That much we can be reasonably sure on.

In 2008 we had cars with aero appendages all over them, in 2009 these were basically all removed. Overtakes for both years stayed level at around 11/GP. An historical low. I would suggest that you can pretty much rule this out as a significant factor.

I wonder if there is a drag component, if you are using 600bhp just to match the drag and you catch up another car, if that reduces your drag by 1/3rd that gives you an extra 200bhp. If you are only using 300bhp to overcome an overall lower level of drag than the 1/3rd reduction only gives you 100bhp to catchup to the guy in front. I'm sure the terminology there is off but hopefully the idea communicates well enough.

Would very draggy but much more powerful cars have an easier time following and overtaking? Im not sure.

It would be interesting / valuable to start amending this graph with the key regulation changes at each point in time to try to begin to see some possible correlation and to clearly rule out others.

Image

Its pretty clear that the tyres are having a larger impact than DRS.

In 2011 we averaged 60/gp 2015 averaged 30/gp and 2016 looks to have returned to 60. DRS has not changed significantly over this time period.

bhall II
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Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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mrluke wrote:It would be interesting / valuable to start amending this graph with the key regulation changes at each point in time to try to begin to see some possible correlation and to clearly rule out others.
Ask, and ye shall receive!

Image

And here's another take from a few respected voices...
Sky Sports, Nov 6, 2009 wrote:[...]

The OWG's solution was to cut aerodynamic grip for the 2009 season, with 50 per cent the reduction initially hoped for. (A figure of 90 per cent was first suggested but quickly shelved so as not to make Formula One cars slower than those in junior formulae.) To do this, the FIA mandated a lower, wider front wing with an adjustable element (in order for the driver to try and improve grip when moving to pass another car), as well as a smaller, higher rear wing (to lessen the trailing air disturbance). Appendages like bargeboards and chimneys, which have spread like a cancer in recent seasons, were also banned while rear diffusers were also made smaller to reduce their effectiveness. The 'push to pass' system afforded by KERS was billed as another plus, potentially helping a car exiting a corner to gain on a competitor on the following straight.

Factor in the return of slick tyres to boost mechanical grip and what resulted were, let's face it, a bunch of rather ungainly looking machines (BMW and Toyota surely being the worst culprits). But if they do the job to a noticeable degree then surely an awkward appearance would be a small price to pay?

Unfortunately, it appeared pretty much straight from the off that those wanting real change had been ripped off. A stern test came in May's Spanish Grand Prix, held on a circuit - Barcelona's Circuit de Catalunya - where there were two whole overtaking manoeuvres during the 2008 race. Fast forward 12 months and there were...four. Of course, you could argue that represents a 100 per cent improvement but for quite a few of us it still represented a good hour-and-a-half of our lives spent watching not very much.

So why has the improvement been, at best, only slight? The most obvious answer lies in the ability of Formula One engineers to take whatever rule changes the FIA throws their way and finagle a way around them. Such an example came at the start of the season when Brawn GP's interpretation of the new rules resulted in a "double decker" diffuser which offered them (as well as Williams and Toyota) a head start grip-wise and a kick-start to their successful World Championship bid. The reality is that such craftiness meant a downforce reduction of 50 per cent was always going to be unachievable - a reduction of between 15 and 25 per cent a more likely estimate for cars at the start of the season, with that figure eaten away still further as updates were introduced.

Then there's the tracks themselves. Speaking at July's German Grand Prix, one of Formula One's top finaglers, Red Bull designer Adrian Newey, said: "I think fundamentally the circuits are probably the biggest influence. Everybody seems to conveniently forget about that as it is deemed to be easier to change the cars than change the circuits." And yet the circuits have changed in recent years, with new purpose-built tracks in China, Bahrain, Turkey and now Abu Dhabi appearing alongside classics such as Monza, Silverstone and Spa. Much like the changes to the cars, though, the effect appears to have been imperceptible.
Rose-tinted

Speaking of perception, Newey also said the notion of a bygone age when "overtaking used to be fantastic", used by some to knock modern Formula One, was "rose-tinted". However, McLaren managing director Jonathan Neale points out the paradox which appears central to the problem: that overtaking has diminished as the field has grown more competitive. "People talk quite fondly and with dewy eyes about motor racing during the 1970s and even earlier and they forget that in those days the difference between first and second could be up to a second," Neale told skysports.com. "Some of the grid never qualified. So when you have cars that are that far apart, cars coming through from the back, mistakes being made...that produced a lot of overtaking. This year, front to back of the grid, on some occasions if you look at the race paces from recent races, it's probably only a second and a half. And when you've got that level of closeness between the cars it is more difficult, more challenging."

[...]

[John] Watson suggests a radical solution, albeit one he knows will never happen - the purist within him no doubt heaving a huge sigh of relief. In short, he thinks that Formula One can only guarantee more overtaking by following NASCAR's lead and effectively becoming a one-make formula. Much as NASCAR has used its 'Car Of Tomorrow' to provide a standard shell in which Ford, Chevrolet, Dodge and Toyota house their wares, he thinks the only real solution available is for the FIA to introduce a standard car including drive train, suspension, brakes, aero package and tyres that are "exceptionally hard by the standard of tyres they run today" - leaving teams to decide what engine to run.

He explains: "It's only by making draconian steps that you will get back longer braking zones and a lot less cornering power than we currently have. But that almost goes against what is Formula One. I would hate to see that actually because Formula One to me has always been about the ultimate in terms of whatever element it is: tyres, aerodynamics, chassis design, engines, whichever. But to the detriment it becomes a very...I have to say 'boring' is not correct but it isn't fulfilling the expectation."

trinidefender
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Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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I've said it before and I'll say it now.

Something that can be implemented within one or two seasons and actually does have somewhat road relevance, even if very little (unlike what we have now), is active suspension.

We all know that running a car in another cars wake disrupts aerodynamic performance heavily. We also know that currently designers and setup engineers have to setup the cars, in this case using rake and ride height, to make a compromise between the best downforce in clean air and the best downforce while running in various levels of traffic (running in turbulent air).

Active suspension will allow a car that is running behind somebody in their wake to optimise the rake, ride height and whatever other factors so that a MINIMUM amount of downforce will be lost. This will have a knock on effect of allowing cars to run closer for longer without destroying their tyres.

Running closer and being able to do so for longer has a few effects:
a. It increases the chances of an overtake happening
b. It puts pressure on the driver in front to make a mistake and allowing an overtake
c. It means that cars running in a train (in dirty air) for more of the race will have generally better tyre life as a result of more consistent downforce and can pit stop less.

Other than that, another avenue to approach can be to make cars in general quite a bit harder to drive and increasing driver mistakes leading to overtakes. Reducing driver aids, such as having no launch control, has gone some way towards this.

Note. This only concerns the aerodynamic aspect of overtaking. Like has been mentioned. There are many other factors.

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Big Mangalhit
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Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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mrluke wrote:
In 2011 we averaged 60/gp 2015 averaged 30/gp and 2016 looks to have returned to 60. DRS has not changed significantly over this time period.
Actually so far 2016 has an unprecedented average of 94,67 overtakes. http://cliptheapex.com/overtaking/

That is in part due to that crazy China GP. But I honestly think we are going to see a lot of overtakes during this season because of 3 choices of tyres make a lot of different strategies possible between all the pilots. That opens the possibility of having different pace in the same car in different parts of the race. I think that is really obvious in the STR cars for instance, they offset their strategies and the car on the softer tyre in a particular point of the race has no problem overtaking the other. I also think we will see a lot of that in the front runners.

In the end I think it added an extra dimension to the strategy, because before the only thing that made you change strategy from the optimal theoretical race time was having the track position (so a racer would rather keep his ahead position on track at the expense of a less faster race time compared to the ideal one). Now they also need to sacrifice a bit of track position to have the best tyre possible in the last stint otherwise they are more easily overtaken than before. Also that was pretty clear in China by the way the Ferraris and Ric climbed the field.

I might be wrong but I think we'll a very large number of overtakes and good ones, because they will rely more on grip difference caused by offset tyre strategy (mainly influencing brake time, corner speed and acceleration) than DRS.