2021 Engine thread

[mzivtins]

I'd like to see an engine formula designed for the spectacle of formula 1.

Sound is important, if they are anything like the current v6 engines, then that is a shame. Applying technology is a good idea, but it all depends on what the goals.

We can say the v6 has better technology than the v10, and 12's but not if you were designing an engine to be beautiful, and something inspiring to be around. It just depends on what the focus is.

A road car needs high efficiency, i think a race car needs power, and efficiency obviously really helps with getting all that power from your fuel/energy but... at least something with twin turbos with compounding that spit fire and like to scare formula 1 drivers and spectators

[misegades]

I'd like to see an engine formula designed for the spectacle of formula 1.

I can't disagree with this sentiment...the less spectacular the cars/engines/races are, the fewer people will want to watch, the less money there is in the series. I don't want to call F1 a spectator sport, but...

[MercAMGF1Fans]

Still don't know why F1 didn't go with stratified fuel injection.. couple that with a turbo you get an insane torque curve, you can run the engine with a much leaner fuel mix, rev the damn thing to a much higher RPM, meaning more sound, more speed, more fuel efficiency and also more thermal efficiency.

then add you ERS, on top

[MercAMGF1Fans]

And that's a more road relevant tech.

[SectorOne]

I´d like to see this:

• Teams get 100kg´s of fuel to use for Qualifying and Race. How they use that is entirely up to them.
• Engine manufacturers can not charge more then 5 million and they have to accomodate any team wanting to buy their engine.
• Virtual box of dimensions where the engine has to fit exluding exhaust.
• No rules on electric harvesting, storing or deployment. Only certain safety regulations aimed at mechanics and driver.

If rules like these are good or not i have no idea but i do think they give a lot more freedom rather then "it has to be a V8 with a cylinder bore of yada yada yada"

It´s a bit like the laws of nature in that if you want to build an airplane the only criteria is that it needs to be able to fly.
You don´t have to build an exact replica of a Boeing 747 to build an airplane.

So price, fuel allocation and outer dimensions are the only limitations, other then that you can do whatever you want.

[godlameroso]

Still don't know why F1 didn't go with stratified fuel injection.. couple that with a turbo you get an insane torque curve, you can run the engine with a much leaner fuel mix, rev the damn thing to a much higher RPM, meaning more sound, more speed, more fuel efficiency and also more thermal efficiency.

then add you ERS, on top

I was under the impression they already did to a certain extent. Granted the rules say a single fuel injector, they don't prohibit multi nozzle injectors.

5.10.2 There may only be one direct injector per cylinder and no injectors are permitted upstream of the intake valves or downstream of the exhaust valves. Only approved parts may be used and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.

[godlameroso]

I´d like to see this:

• Teams get 100kg´s of fuel to use for Qualifying and Race. How they use that is entirely up to them.
• Engine manufacturers can not charge more then 5 million and they have to accomodate any team wanting to buy their engine.
• Virtual box of dimensions where the engine has to fit exluding exhaust.
• No rules on electric harvesting, storing or deployment. Only certain safety regulations aimed at mechanics and driver.

If rules like these are good or not i have no idea but i do think they give a lot more freedom rather then "it has to be a V8 with a cylinder bore of yada yada yada"

It´s a bit like the laws of nature in that if you want to build an airplane the only criteria is that it needs to be able to fly.
You don´t have to build an exact replica of a Boeing 747 to build an airplane.

So price, fuel allocation and outer dimensions are the only limitations, other then that you can do whatever you want.

Almost assuredly no one would use a reciprocating piston engine with poppet valves if that was the case. Does F1 need a reciprocating piston engine with poppet valves though?

Would a radial engine work, or a rotary, or a turbine, or a steam engine? What kind of valve drive would you use if you did indeed use a piston engine? Would you eliminate the cam drive, like the Konigsegg free-valve tech? Would you use a stepped fixed ration transmission, or CVT? Would you even use a transmission and instead just use the ICE as an electric generator? Maybe just drive strictly off electric motors?

[mrluke]

I´d like to see this:

• Teams get 100kg´s of fuel to use for Qualifying and Race. How they use that is entirely up to them.
• Engine manufacturers can not charge more then 5 million and they have to accomodate any team wanting to buy their engine.
• Virtual box of dimensions where the engine has to fit exluding exhaust.
• No rules on electric harvesting, storing or deployment. Only certain safety regulations aimed at mechanics and driver.

If rules like these are good or not i have no idea but i do think they give a lot more freedom rather then "it has to be a V8 with a cylinder bore of yada yada yada"

It´s a bit like the laws of nature in that if you want to build an airplane the only criteria is that it needs to be able to fly.
You don´t have to build an exact replica of a Boeing 747 to build an airplane.

So price, fuel allocation and outer dimensions are the only limitations, other then that you can do whatever you want.

+1

I would just limit fuel for the race otherwise qualy is going to be lots of cars sitting in garages

Otherwise, FIA to supply up to 100kg of pump fuel for each car for each race.
Limit size of cars to a box
Mandatory safety requirements
Minimum driver and seat weight.

Then a Balance of performance to ensure one team isn't miles ahead and to allow manufacturers to bring their own tech. I.e. maybe Renault want a small turbo engine and Ferrari want loads of cylinders, balance it out at the end so that they can both be competitive.

As much as I hate BOP I would rather have a strong healthy grid full of cars with plenty of differentiation .

[MercAMGF1Fans]

I was under the impression they already did to a certain extent. Granted the rules say a single fuel injector, they don't prohibit multi nozzle injectors.

5.10.2 There may only be one direct injector per cylinder and no injectors are permitted upstream of the intake valves or downstream of the exhaust valves. Only approved parts may be used and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.

nah, they're effectively Jet/Diesel firing now.. and that's the down side to it all.. Much lower RPM.. meaning lesser noise, and at the end of the torque curve far to quickly

[SectorOne]

Almost assuredly no one would use a reciprocating piston engine with poppet valves if that was the case. Does F1 need a reciprocating piston engine with poppet valves though?

Would a radial engine work, or a rotary, or a turbine, or a steam engine? What kind of valve drive would you use if you did indeed use a piston engine? Would you eliminate the cam drive, like the Konigsegg free-valve tech? Would you use a stepped fixed ration transmission, or CVT? Would you even use a transmission and instead just use the ICE as an electric generator? Maybe just drive strictly off electric motors?

Maybe even a diesel engine or two? I mean all bets are off with regulations like that.

It would be really interesting also to see if eventually everybody would converge on the same thing or if the regulations are so wide that there´s always going to be a new thing thats the best.

I also wonder if the racing wouldnt improve dramatically as well due to a whole host of different concepts each with different strengths and weaknesses.

[Jolle]

I´d like to see this:

• Teams get 100kg´s of fuel to use for Qualifying and Race. How they use that is entirely up to them.
• Engine manufacturers can not charge more then 5 million and they have to accomodate any team wanting to buy their engine.
• Virtual box of dimensions where the engine has to fit exluding exhaust.
• No rules on electric harvesting, storing or deployment. Only certain safety regulations aimed at mechanics and driver.

If rules like these are good or not i have no idea but i do think they give a lot more freedom rather then "it has to be a V8 with a cylinder bore of yada yada yada"

It´s a bit like the laws of nature in that if you want to build an airplane the only criteria is that it needs to be able to fly.
You don´t have to build an exact replica of a Boeing 747 to build an airplane.

So price, fuel allocation and outer dimensions are the only limitations, other then that you can do whatever you want.

+1

I would just limit fuel for the race otherwise qualy is going to be lots of cars sitting in garages

Otherwise, FIA to supply up to 100kg of pump fuel for each car for each race.
Limit size of cars to a box
Mandatory safety requirements
Minimum driver and seat weight.

Then a Balance of performance to ensure one team isn't miles ahead and to allow manufacturers to bring their own tech. I.e. maybe Renault want a small turbo engine and Ferrari want loads of cylinders, balance it out at the end so that they can both be competitive.

As much as I hate BOP I would rather have a strong healthy grid full of cars with plenty of differentiation .

The problem with rules like this is that you think from the way the current rules, with a ice etc.

If it's only 100kg of fuel and everything else is free, there would be a kind of generator converging fuel into motion as efficiently as possible, probably a turbine with a static RPM coupled on a flywheel and a k-unit.

Like 22 hoovers driving around.

[wuzak]

nah, they're effectively Jet/Diesel firing now.. and that's the down side to it all.. Much lower RPM.. meaning lesser noise, and at the end of the torque curve far to quickly

Not sure about that.

I believe that the torque curve is relatively flat for these engines. But with the 8 ratio gearboxes and the desire to optimise the efficiency they tend to operate in a narrow band.

[carisi2k]

I´d like to see this:

• Teams get 100kg´s of fuel to use for Qualifying and Race. How they use that is entirely up to them.
• Engine manufacturers can not charge more then 5 million and they have to accomodate any team wanting to buy their engine.
• Virtual box of dimensions where the engine has to fit exluding exhaust.
• No rules on electric harvesting, storing or deployment. Only certain safety regulations aimed at mechanics and driver.

If rules like these are good or not i have no idea but i do think they give a lot more freedom rather then "it has to be a V8 with a cylinder bore of yada yada yada"

It´s a bit like the laws of nature in that if you want to build an airplane the only criteria is that it needs to be able to fly.
You don´t have to build an exact replica of a Boeing 747 to build an airplane.

So price, fuel allocation and outer dimensions are the only limitations, other then that you can do whatever you want.

+1

I would just limit fuel for the race otherwise qualy is going to be lots of cars sitting in garages

Otherwise, FIA to supply up to 100kg of pump fuel for each car for each race.
Limit size of cars to a box
Mandatory safety requirements
Minimum driver and seat weight.

Then a Balance of performance to ensure one team isn't miles ahead and to allow manufacturers to bring their own tech. I.e. maybe Renault want a small turbo engine and Ferrari want loads of cylinders, balance it out at the end so that they can both be competitive.

As much as I hate BOP I would rather have a strong healthy grid full of cars with plenty of differentiation .

Maybe Formula one isn't for you then. GT3 has tried BOP with different engine sizes and it doesn't work. Some cars are much better then others. Even with similar specs and regulations many categories still have significantly varied performance from the best team to the worst.

Even in Formula 1 between the 4 Mercedes teams you have the fastest car on the grid and the slowest car on the grid using the same engine.

[mrluke]

Lol okay.

The best racing is between very different cars that set similar lap times. My understanding of f1 is about being as fast as possible over a lap and pushing technological boundaries.

Modern f1 is strangled by over regulation with all of the clone cars designed by the fia. If "that" is what f1 is about then it's certainly not for me.

[toraabe]

OK here you go 1200 Hp 1986
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx3H5sOdnxU