2022 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 09 - 11

[chrisc90]

Rumours of additional penalties...




I think we will see the likes of Sainz, Lewis, Max, Perez etc all going for a Q3 lap given the faster car will start higher up. We seen last week that penalties are totted up based on total points accumulated then the order decided by the faster driver.

Verstappen (5 places)
Perez (10 places)
Sainz (15 places + 10 gearbox)
Bottas (15 places)
Hamilton (Back of grid)
Tsunoda (Back of grid) + 3 grid drop for failing to slow.


So you have Sainz, Bottas, Hamilton and Tsunoda all with a back of grid penalty. Likely Tsunoda will start last with the additional penalty grid drop as its outside the component points tally grid drops.

I can’t see why Max with just a 5-place grid penalty won’t take part in Q3! With Sainz, Perez and Hamilton all taking penalties he’ll start 3rd!

So anyone expecting him to “cut through the field” get ready for him to lead by the end of Lap 2-3! Only a DNF could stop him from win the rest of the season…

Yeah, Imagine we will see 'business as usual' for qualifying.

[Juzh]

Despite Verstappen long runs indicating they are ahead I wonder if RB is carrying too much downforce for this track, as they don't really gain all that much in corners (diminishing returns?), but they lose quite a bit on straights. Maybe they really gone all in on tyre life for the race?

Looking at f1 tempo it shows that big rear wing verstappen is towing around really does hamper him in non-drs zones as sainz gains considerable amount of time on those straights, almost 4 tenths. Tables turn when drs is open with RB having more top speed and better acceleration. I don't know what to make of it.

[search]

of course both Red Bull will go all out in Qualifying, don't think anyone ever doubted that.

The discussion here was about Sainz and Hamilton taking it easy in Q3, because it would increase Verstappen's penalty, and their teams therefor benefit from that.

[search]

Despite Verstappen long runs indicating they are ahead I wonder if RB is carrying too much downforce for this track, as they don't really gain all that much in corners (diminishing returns?), but they lose quite a bit on straights. Maybe they really gone all in on tyre life for the race?

I was thinking so too, don't think all the defecit is down to a lower engine mode. I also wouldn't completely discard what Russell said about the superiour energy deployment of the Ferrari. That may be a reason for being quicker at the end of the long straights as well.

[johnny comelately]

Is there a significant difference in frontal areas?

[Wouter]

Someone on another forum posted this and I like to know also how they will do this.
.

How was it again with Grid penalties, say Verstappen does P1 in Qualifying, with Sainz, Hamilton and Perez all inside top 5.

First part is easy, After penalties Max would be P6 but P3, P4 and P5 are now "empty", wil they move P7, P8 and P9 passed Max or can Max move up to P3 than?

I know in the past the way such penalties applied have changed, so am not fully up to date how they now exactly work.

[organic]

Someone on another forum posted this and I like to know also how they will do this.
.

How was it again with Grid penalties, say Verstappen does P1 in Qualifying, with Sainz, Hamilton and Perez all inside top 5.

First part is easy, After penalties Max would be P6 but P3, P4 and P5 are now "empty", wil they move P7, P8 and P9 passed Max or can Max move up to P3 than?

I know in the past the way such penalties applied have changed, so am not fully up to date how they now exactly work.

I am pretty sure that Max would start P3 in the scenario given

[chrisc90]

I guess it depends which order the penalties are applied in? Technically you could drop P3 P4, P5, fill those spaces in with 6,7,8....then apply Max Penalty which would put him behind those.

There will be some order they apply them in but ive no idea.

[search]

Someone on another forum posted this and I like to know also how they will do this.
.

How was it again with Grid penalties, say Verstappen does P1 in Qualifying, with Sainz, Hamilton and Perez all inside top 5.

First part is easy, After penalties Max would be P6 but P3, P4 and P5 are now "empty", wil they move P7, P8 and P9 passed Max or can Max move up to P3 than?

I know in the past the way such penalties applied have changed, so am not fully up to date how they now exactly work.

At first, "normal" penalties will be applied in the order they ranked in Qualifying. Then "back of the grid" cars will be ranked based on those standings.

So in your example, Verstappen would move up to P3. But with his gearbox penalty to be applied first, Sainz basically can't beat Hamilton anyway, so there's not much point for him to set a lap in Q3.

[chrisc90]

Someone on another forum posted this and I like to know also how they will do this.
.

How was it again with Grid penalties, say Verstappen does P1 in Qualifying, with Sainz, Hamilton and Perez all inside top 5.

First part is easy, After penalties Max would be P6 but P3, P4 and P5 are now "empty", wil they move P7, P8 and P9 passed Max or can Max move up to P3 than?

I know in the past the way such penalties applied have changed, so am not fully up to date how they now exactly work.

At first, "normal" penalties will be applied in the order they ranked in Qualifying. Then "back of the grid" cars will be ranked based on those standings.

So in your example, Verstappen would move up to P3. But with his gearbox penalty to be applied first, Sainz basically can't beat Hamilton anyway, so there's not much point for him to set a lap in Q3.

Why cant Sainz beat Hamilton?

Both drivers are at the back of the grid for penalties

[chrisc90]

c) Once the grid has been established in accordance with Article 42a) and Article
42b) above, grid position penalties will be applied to the drivers in question.
i) The driver with the higher classification from the qualifying practice session
will have precedence. in the order the offences were committed. If, following
the qualifying practice session, more than one driver incurs a penalty under
Article 23.2b) or Article 23.4a) preference will be given to the driver whose
Competitor first informed the Technical Delegate that a power unit or gearbox
change will be carried out.
d) Once the grid has been established in accordance with Article 42a), 42b) and 42c),
grid penalties for any driver required to start the race from the back of the grid after
incurring a penalty under Article 28.323.2b) will be applied. will be arranged on the
grid behind any driver penalised under c) above.
i) If more than one (1) driver is required to start the race from the back of the
grid they will be arranged in qualifying order.
Any driver who incurs a penalty under in accordance with Article 28.323.2b) or
Article 2923.4a) will take precedence over any driver whose qualifying practice
times have been deleted for any reason.



Sainz can absolutely start ahead of hamilton.

[search]

c) Once the grid has been established in accordance with Article 42a) and Article
42b) above, grid position penalties will be applied to the drivers in question.
i) The driver with the higher classification from the qualifying practice session
will have precedence. in the order the offences were committed. If, following
the qualifying practice session, more than one driver incurs a penalty under
Article 23.2b) or Article 23.4a) preference will be given to the driver whose
Competitor first informed the Technical Delegate that a power unit or gearbox
change will be carried out.
d) Once the grid has been established in accordance with Article 42a), 42b) and 42c),
grid penalties for any driver required to start the race from the back of the grid after
incurring a penalty under Article 28.323.2b) will be applied. will be arranged on the
grid behind any driver penalised under c) above.
i) If more than one (1) driver is required to start the race from the back of the
grid they will be arranged in qualifying order.
Any driver who incurs a penalty under in accordance with Article 28.323.2b) or
Article 2923.4a) will take precedence over any driver whose qualifying practice
times have been deleted for any reason.



Sainz can absolutely start ahead of hamilton.

my understanding of the rules is that "grid position penalties" will be applied first, so for example Sainz' +10 gearbox penalty. This moves him behind Hamilton before the "back of the grid" cars get ranked by current order

[chrisc90]

So Max's Penalty would be applied first, together with Yuki's 3 place drop on their QUALIFYING position. So if for example the order was:

1.Max
2.Lec
3.Sainz
4.Perez
5.Ham
6.Rus

Max would drop down to P6 moving everybody else up one stop, together with the Perez penalty of 10 grid positions. Max's penalty will be applied first as he qualified higher. So Max would then go up to P5 given the application of Perez penalty for qualifying lower. Then you would remove the back of grid penalties for Sainz, Lewis( who are ordered in qualifying order), so that would move Max up another 2 places into P3.


So to recap:

grid penalties applied in order of the fastest driver first in quali order.
Back of grid penalties applied AFTER and based on fastest qualifier.

[search]

So Max's Penalty would be applied first, together with Yuki's 3 place drop on their QUALIFYING position

as well as the +10 for Sainz. As far as I can see, it's not part of the "back of the grid" penalty.

[chrisc90]

my understanding of the rules is that "grid position penalties" will be applied first, so for example Sainz' +10 gearbox penalty. This moves him behind Hamilton before the "back of the grid" cars get ranked by current order

I would say have a look at how the Charles penalty was applied in Spa (FIA document no.16) where they say its an accumulation of points. This is the first time its happened since the rule introduced in 2018. Therefore if its over the limit for accumulation of points for back of the grid, then the penalty of back of grid is applied.


Carlos sainz has accumulated 20grid place penalties, in excess of the 15grid positions to start from the back, so is required to start from the back of the grid. (FIA doc.23 from Monza).

So any driver getting more than 15 grid place drops, will be required to start from the back of the grid. So the penalty will be applied in the same fashion of qualifying order as those with a straight back of grid penalty.