I would love to see a woman in F1 but...

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hollus
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Re: I would love to see a woman in F1 but...

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And I would love it sooo much if points raised already mostly in page 1, or in page 2, or 3, or 5, were acknowledged as having been mentioned already.
You don’t have to agree, but you should have read it and spent more than 1 brain second acknowledging the idea being proposed, before posting.
Is that too much to ask?
Rivals, not enemies. (Now paraphrased from A. Newey).

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mwillems
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Re: I would love to see a woman in F1 but...

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woocasz wrote:
07 Jan 2025, 13:21
CMSMJ1 wrote:
07 Jan 2025, 13:03
RonMexico wrote:
07 Jan 2025, 12:33
Why are all the top chess players men?
Not replying at you RonMexico but this is my own view and your question is a good one to go from
It's easy to see in this thread that the world remains a "white man's" and any deviation from that and the heavy weight of that needs to be shed before any 'progress' can be made.

Men have all the opportunity, all the role models and the societal structure to do it. I know I can pretty much do whatever I want to in the world.

Non White men have some of the same masculine privilige but in some areas there is yet racism holding the invisible hand

Women - they've had it hard forever....and with atitudes that they cannot do 'X' because they could not beat a man, or shall not do 'Y' because they might not look nice doing it?? WTF...

Maybe we are so far at the start of the curve for equal opportunity we just cannot see what the end looks like?
Have you ever heard of such a Professor Jordan Peterson? If no, watch this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YthgwSaEkcw

another thing, as I mentioned before, stop this woke BS for God sake.
"white men" "white privilige" "systemic racism"
It's 2025 and you still believe this nonsense?

What is it that a woman can't do, that a man can do in today's world? (the same applies to blacks) If what you write were true, Obama wouldn't have been president of the most powerful country in the world for 10 years, and Hamilton wouldn't have been an eight-time world champion (yes, Lewis should be WDC in 2021).
Nobody talked bout those things extreme terms. That black and white professor Peterson also states that the differences are cultural as well as biological. I'd agree that there are some cases of biological difference, but it doesn't take long to look at todays gender debate to realise our understanding of it falls well short, particulr with the biological blurring around the sexes which have always been based on looking at one area, and which today we realise in fact it doesn't work like that.

The professor does indeed identify that there are societal reasons why women are help back. Those extreme terms are not ones that have been used here. I think the strongest have been sexism and unconscious bias. But that is what a culture that says men can do this and women can do that embeds. So I agree, I won't use the terms you've used, but read the thread, no one else did, but the bias we are talking about is the bias that the professor was speaking about.

We are at this point in the thread looking at the cultural reasons as to why people are obstructed from doing what they want to do. And it is important to state it using those terms. People don't always try to do what they want to do or be honest about it because they sense the barriers, whether they are even aware of it or not. Sexuality is one example over the years. It seems to be that the same argument your posting now you would apply back then before we evolved, and we learned that actually that way of thinking didn't work.

Anyway, to facts to show you your ideas, as I understand them, are misguided.

40% of the global audience of F1 is Women, for instance, this is something that has come out of a few bits of analysis. My partner and one daughter watches F1, though for her sins my daughter supports Ferrari.

Elite sports exist for women and it is big money and all over TV, in many cases growing and getting bigger.

So I guess what I'm saying is, I challenge the idea that women don't like motorsports, or that women don't commit to the same sports that men do from an early age. So what's left that could be the reason?

I would agree that due to differences in society and other causes, that they are less likely to get into motorsports. But that is that point that many on here are making. And many of those reasons can be eliminated because they are only there today because they were there yesterday.

As an aside, it was only in recent years that women referees started to appear in the premier league. Absolutely no reason they couldn't do the job, except for the way they'd be treated week in and week out by the fans in terms of decisions and abuse from the stands.

Woocasz, are you eastern european? When I hear the name Lukas in romance languages it sounds like this.
Last edited by mwillems on 07 Jan 2025, 15:36, edited 1 time in total.
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RonMexico
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Re: I would love to see a woman in F1 but...

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Why is support so poor for women's professional leagues?

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mwillems
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Re: I would love to see a woman in F1 but...

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In any case, I think the only thing we should be looking at here is if society is an obstacle to women in motorsport, and it does seem you have roundabout agreed with that it can be, even if you have other reasons too. I certainly don't agree with your gender stereotyping and I think for most people we have covered this enough and given a detailed enough response as to why those that disagree with you do disagree, and likewise you've made your point pretty clear.

We aren't going to be changing your mind today and that's fine, it's your prerogative.

Being as at present it is largely People vs Woocasz and that this is becoming a platform for woocasz and veering away from the stated topic, I think it might be good to move on now from Culture, Gender and Sexism and if woocasz you want to reply to my message then please reply to me privately, if that is OK? We can pick it up from there.

Edit: Well my penultimate post on it anyway :D
Last edited by mwillems on 07 Jan 2025, 15:35, edited 2 times in total.
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

-Bandit

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mwillems
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Re: I would love to see a woman in F1 but...

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RonMexico wrote:
07 Jan 2025, 15:25
Why is support so poor for women's professional leagues?
I told my grand-aunt that my daughter plays Rugby and Football. I kid you not, she almost went into shock. It may seem like a long time ago, but it's only relatively recent in the west that these barriers started to get broken down and many older individuals and traditionalists are very much stuck in their ways.

Every day these conversations happen, every day things change by a tiny amount.
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

-Bandit

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RonMexico
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Re: I would love to see a woman in F1 but...

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mwillems wrote:
07 Jan 2025, 15:32
RonMexico wrote:
07 Jan 2025, 15:25
Why is support so poor for women's professional leagues?
I told my grand-aunt that my daughter plays Rugby and Football. I kid you not, she almost went into shock. It may seem like a long time ago, but it's only relatively recent in the west that these barriers started to get broken down and many older individuals and traditionalists are very much stuck in their ways.

Every day these conversations happen, every day things change by a tiny amount.
Are you Canadian?

If it was a gender thing then the female viewership for open sports would flock to those leagues, but it isn't. It's a far more complicated question and boiling it down to the patriarchy or whatever is misguided and disingenuous.

I brought up chess earlier as it totally available to just about every human alive. Why no female chess champion?

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hollus
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Re: I would love to see a woman in F1 but...

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ahh, now we moved that chess goalpost. Have you acknowledged the existence of a post about Judit Polgar yet?
Why are China and India (and Denmark for that matter) plainly horrible at basketball?
Rivals, not enemies. (Now paraphrased from A. Newey).

woocasz
woocasz
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Re: I would love to see a woman in F1 but...

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mwillems wrote:
07 Jan 2025, 15:13
woocasz wrote:
07 Jan 2025, 13:21
CMSMJ1 wrote:
07 Jan 2025, 13:03


Not replying at you RonMexico but this is my own view and your question is a good one to go from
It's easy to see in this thread that the world remains a "white man's" and any deviation from that and the heavy weight of that needs to be shed before any 'progress' can be made.

Men have all the opportunity, all the role models and the societal structure to do it. I know I can pretty much do whatever I want to in the world.

Non White men have some of the same masculine privilige but in some areas there is yet racism holding the invisible hand

Women - they've had it hard forever....and with atitudes that they cannot do 'X' because they could not beat a man, or shall not do 'Y' because they might not look nice doing it?? WTF...

Maybe we are so far at the start of the curve for equal opportunity we just cannot see what the end looks like?
Have you ever heard of such a Professor Jordan Peterson? If no, watch this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YthgwSaEkcw

another thing, as I mentioned before, stop this woke BS for God sake.
"white men" "white privilige" "systemic racism"
It's 2025 and you still believe this nonsense?

What is it that a woman can't do, that a man can do in today's world? (the same applies to blacks) If what you write were true, Obama wouldn't have been president of the most powerful country in the world for 10 years, and Hamilton wouldn't have been an eight-time world champion (yes, Lewis should be WDC in 2021).
Nobody talked bout those things extreme terms. That black and white professor Peterson also states that the differences are cultural as well as biological. I'd agree that there are some cases of biological difference, but it doesn't take long to look at todays gender debate to realise our understanding of it falls well short, particulr with the biological blurring around the sexes which have always been based on looking at one area, and which today we realise in fact it doesn't work like that.

The professor does indeed identify that there are societal reasons why women are help back. Those extreme terms are not ones that have been used here. I think the strongest have been sexism and unconscious bias. But that is what a culture that says men can do this and women can do that embeds. So I agree, I won't use the terms you've used, but read the thread, no one else did, but the bias we are talking about is the bias that the professor was speaking about.

We are at this point in the thread looking at the cultural reasons as to why people are obstructed from doing what they want to do. And it is important to state it using those terms. People don't always try to do what they want to do or be honest about it because they sense the barriers, whether they are even aware of it or not. Sexuality is one example over the years. It seems to be that the same argument your posting now you would apply back then before we evolved, and we learned that actually that way of thinking didn't work.

Anyway, to facts to show you your ideas, as I understand them, are misguided.

40% of the global audience of F1 is Women, for instance, this is something that has come out of a few bits of analysis. My partner and one daughter watches F1, though for her sins my daughter supports Ferrari.

Elite sports exist for women and it is big money and all over TV, in many cases growing and getting bigger.

So I guess what I'm saying is, I challenge the idea that women don't like motorsports, or that women don't commit to the same sports that men do from an early age. So what's left that could be the reason?

I would agree that due to differences in society and other causes, that they are less likely to get into motorsports. But that is that point that many on here are making. And many of those reasons can be eliminated because they are only there today because they were there yesterday.

As an aside, it was only in recent years that women referees started to appear in the premier league. Absolutely no reason they couldn't do the job, except for the way they'd be treated week in and week out by the fans in terms of decisions and abuse from the stands.
OMG, so many words and they mean so little... what is your point exactly?
I said yesterday, that I would like to see woman in F1 competing with men, I really do.
Elite sports exist for women and it is big money and all over TV, in many cases growing and getting bigger.
LOL
NBA vs WNBA
Revenue: 10,5B$ vs 200M$
Average salary: 11,9M$ vs 120k$
Average Viewership: Playoffs: 5.47 million vs Playoffs: 400,000

don't tell me women should earn as much as men looking by the stats

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mwillems
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Joined: 04 Sep 2016, 22:11

Re: I would love to see a woman in F1 but...

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RonMexico wrote:
07 Jan 2025, 15:41
mwillems wrote:
07 Jan 2025, 15:32
RonMexico wrote:
07 Jan 2025, 15:25
Why is support so poor for women's professional leagues?
I told my grand-aunt that my daughter plays Rugby and Football. I kid you not, she almost went into shock. It may seem like a long time ago, but it's only relatively recent in the west that these barriers started to get broken down and many older individuals and traditionalists are very much stuck in their ways.

Every day these conversations happen, every day things change by a tiny amount.
Are you Canadian?

If it was a gender thing then the female viewership for open sports would flock to those leagues, but it isn't. It's a far more complicated question and boiling it down to the patriarchy or whatever is misguided and disingenuous.

I brought up chess earlier as it totally available to just about every human alive. Why no female chess champion?
Half British, part Polish and Belgian, the name being Belgian of Dutch descent. But I live in Britain. My partner is Portuguese and my kids quarter british each. We are quiet mixed!

Re Chess, it's a whole other question which may or may not have crossover, but please read this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_ ... ss%20early.

I'm not sure how it applies though?
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

-Bandit

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RonMexico
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Joined: 08 Jul 2020, 14:11

Re: I would love to see a woman in F1 but...

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CMSMJ1 wrote:
07 Jan 2025, 13:03
RonMexico wrote:
07 Jan 2025, 12:33
Why are all the top chess players men?
Not replying at you RonMexico but this is my own view and your question is a good one to go from
It's easy to see in this thread that the world remains a "white man's" and any deviation from that and the heavy weight of that needs to be shed before any 'progress' can be made.

Men have all the opportunity, all the role models and the societal structure to do it. I know I can pretty much do whatever I want to in the world.

Non White men have some of the same masculine privilige but in some areas there is yet racism holding the invisible hand

Women - they've had it hard forever....and with atitudes that they cannot do 'X' because they could not beat a man, or shall not do 'Y' because they might not look nice doing it?? WTF...

Maybe we are so far at the start of the curve for equal opportunity we just cannot see what the end looks like?
Whoa now, what part of society are women excluded from? I'm in western Europe like the majority on here I assume.

There is inertia to the existing sports structures but as someone with first hand experience of administration at club level it's totally wrong to say there are opportunities being denied. There are simply fundamental differences between both sexes.

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hollus
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Re: I would love to see a woman in F1 but...

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OK, it get’s hard to read minds with those one-liner questions.
Are you saying that women cannot get good at chess, or that women don’t want to be good at chess?
I assumed you meant the first, but maybe not?
Make the point explicitly, please, that would help.
Rivals, not enemies. (Now paraphrased from A. Newey).

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RonMexico
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Re: I would love to see a woman in F1 but...

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hollus wrote:
07 Jan 2025, 15:54
OK, it get’s hard to read minds with those one-liner questions.
Are you saying that women cannot get good at chess, or that women don’t want to be good at chess?
I assumed you meant the first, but maybe not?
Make the point explicitly, please, that would help.
Its the second but I'm struggling to frame it without the world jumping down my throat

woocasz
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Re: I would love to see a woman in F1 but...

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Have you seen this thing called the Olympics? It has 10500 competitors with over 5000 being women. I don't really want to argue with you , but reality strongly disagrees with your statement.
what is your point exactly?
Name one Olympic discipline in which a woman beats a man?

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hollus
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Re: I would love to see a woman in F1 but...

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1992 clay shooting (skeet).
And check all 2024 shooting results.

Are we really reading the thread before posing???!!!
Rivals, not enemies. (Now paraphrased from A. Newey).

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mwillems
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Re: I would love to see a woman in F1 but...

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RonMexico wrote:
07 Jan 2025, 15:55
hollus wrote:
07 Jan 2025, 15:54
OK, it get’s hard to read minds with those one-liner questions.
Are you saying that women cannot get good at chess, or that women don’t want to be good at chess?
I assumed you meant the first, but maybe not?
Make the point explicitly, please, that would help.
Its the second but I'm struggling to frame it without the world jumping down my throat
I don't think people are jumping down throats, only one individual being over the top.

I mean, they may not want to be in chess, but what is the point of this? Haven't we already demonstrated that nearly half the global F1 audience is women?

I wouldn't disagree that preferences in sports and activities are not aligned between genders, I would disagree if someone said women don't like motorsport.

Also, I don't call this patriachy. You can call it culture, but if it is easer, call it trend or fashion, it's largely the same thing except trends and fashions tend to change more, but the effect is that same, people do what the others do, until someone shows them they can do it different.
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

-Bandit