Espionage at Ferrari and McLaren

[Rob W]

Rob, I think u are missing the point. Mcl is not in possession, an employee was. Mcl can only be in breach depending how, when and, more importantly, why said employee had the docs.

Not so sure about that McDenife. Legally speaking he is an agent of the team (I assume he is an employee and not a contractor). While in their employment anything which relates to, or could possibly relate to his work, automatically involves the team - legally - even if others don't know about it. If what you say was the case then every company would always have the perfect defense in any court case of this kind. They could just say, "we didn't know anything about it."

The how, when and why of Coulghan's possession of the documents is irrelevant. Any possession of another team's intellectual property is an automatic breach of the sport's rules no matter which way you bake it.

While he is part of their team he is literally part of their team even if he is acting alone. McLaren could be in breach without even knowing it. (I am qualified as a lawyer btw, and have read many industrial espionage rulings - only differing FIA/World Motorsport rules would alter anything and I'm certain they are very specific about the employer/employee implied associations).

McLaren's first line of defense would have to be, "we didn't know about it" and the second line would be "and we didn't use any of the info either" - two lines which McLaren have almost followed to the letter. They are hoping, wishing more like it, that they can convince the powers that be that Coulghan was so far outside his realm that they can distance themselves from him and thereby avoid the worst punishment.

I am a McLaren supporter though and only say the above because of the relatively pointless avenues people are debating which don't even come into the equation until it is established whether or not specific rules have been broken. McLaren will have difficulty separating themselves from someone who, until weeks ago, was the mainstay of their technical department.

Rob W

[siskue2005]

i second that

[pRo]

People are getting away from the important point at hand here I think.

It doesn't matter whether McLaren used any or all of the information Coulghan came into possession of at all - the team is still in breach of the motorsport regulations.

McLaren are only trying to mitigate the punishment they will get by proving they didn't use any of the information on their car. They are still, however, guilty of being in possession of the information. Coughlan has admitted this already and so it is a foregone conclusion.

I see your point, but think about this the other way around. It can't be this simple, can it?


...if a team should be automatically punished for (any member of the team) being in possession of other teams information, McLaren is definitely guilty. And FIA should remove their points so far from this season, right?

Now lets say anyone from Renault faxes information about their car or logs to anyone in Ferrari. Should Ferrari also be automatically punished for being in possession of other teams information?


At least we'd have an exciting rest of the season, trying to keep track who sent what to who and whether there should be any teams in the championship. Shame that Mr Minardi isn't here anymore, he's just the kinda guy who I could imagine sending some info to all the other teams and then tell FIA about it. As a joke of course.

[wowf1]

While I certainly condemn any of those involved in this espionage saga, it concerns me that the flow and transport of information in F1 is so vaguely regulated and, it seems, inconsistently policed.

OK, so you're clearly not allowed to secretly pass details to another team. But, teams freely spy on each other's cars. There are groups of photographers who work for F1 teams whose job it is to track every possible development on a rival's machine. They also use acoustic analysis to analyse the power characteristics of rival's engines. I've even heard of methods by which one team listens in on another's conversations. Couple this with the inevitable flow of personnel: eg. one guy at a team was largely responsible for a carbon/seamless shift gearbox. He switched teams and the following year that team had a carbon/seamless box. There MUST have been information delivered, in let's face it, an unsporting manner. Difficult to police I'm sure, but it happens and it's not ideal.

I remember reading an article in Racecar Engineering (I think it was the editor's column by CA-W) about the potential minefield of patents and IPR in F1 and motorsport. All I can say is thank christ no one patents anything (even though they might be entitled to, there have been some cracking inventions!) Otherwise we'd have sagas like this every-other week.

[mcdenife]

Rob wrote:

While he is part of their team he is literally part of their team even if he is acting alone. McLaren could be in breach without even knowing it. (I am qualified as a lawyer btw, and have read many industrial espionage rulings - only differing FIA/World Motorsport rules would alter anything and I'm certain they are very specific about the employer/employee implied associations).

The important point is, was he acting on Mcl's (knowingly or otherwise) or not. It is the same in every field. When is an employee a representative of his employers, always? As far as I know, he an agent of his employers only when he is acting on their behalf. I am not a lawyer but I do know that if an Mcl mechanic decides to steal a ferrari wheel gun he happened to come across, as a souvenir for some beau of his who is nuts about ferrari (or for whatever other reason), you cannot charge Mcl for theft or being in possession when the gun is later found in the mechanics (or his beau's) house.

[modbaraban]

Shame that Mr Minardi isn't here anymore, he's just the kinda guy who I could imagine sending some info to all the other teams and then tell FIA about it. As a joke of course.

lmao

[siskue2005]

People are getting away from the important point at hand here I think.

It doesn't matter whether McLaren used any or all of the information Coulghan came into possession of at all - the team is still in breach of the motorsport regulations.

McLaren are only trying to mitigate the punishment they will get by proving they didn't use any of the information on their car. They are still, however, guilty of being in possession of the information. Coughlan has admitted this already and so it is a foregone conclusion.

Now lets say anyone from Renault faxes information about their car or logs to anyone in Ferrari. Should Ferrari also be automatically punished for being in possession of other teams information?

If they dont have any bad intentions..... then Ferrari should report to FIA, and Renault that they have received such a thing.....and submit it to FIA!

Rather than keep it with you for many months and send your wife to make a copy of it

[pRo]

If they dont have any bad intentions.....

But apparently the bad intentions were aimed for Honda, though neither of them even worked for Honda yet. I'm sure everyone agrees Honda had nothing to do with this and shouldn't be punished.

(makes you think though...what if they did go to Honda together, with the knowledge they had from both teams and the finance that Honda could supply?)


It's hard to think about this matter and what would be fair. Surely you can't blame the employee, if an employer does something he's not instructed to do? I'm not a fan of either team or person, so it's kinda easy to look at the whole picture. I'm sure I would be biased, if this affected my favourite team in any way though. Now I just want a fair outcome and an exciting season, which gets settled on track.

[Rob W]

Trudy Coulghan endorsing a photocopier company

(about 2/3 of the way down the page)
http://www.teamgt.co.uk/index.php?pg=16

Hhhhmmmmmm

Rob W

[dumrick]

That can't be true!!! "Trudy Coughlan – Tyrrell Racing Organisation"??? Well, that company doesn't exist anymore since 1999. Do they have to get 8-year old testimonies?

[dumrick]

And in the news today: Stepney wants to meet with Ferrari to reveal who "plotted against him".
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_ ... t_id=32138

Am I the only one that starts getting that "soap-opera feeling"?
I thyink I'll buy the movie rights for this one

[FLC]

Stepney warned Coughlan of Ferrari floor

Nigel Stepney emailed McLaren's chief designer Mike Coughlan on the eve of the season to tip him off about Ferrari's movable floor design, this week's Autosport magazine reveals.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60908

Those of you who read it be ware, Mclaren's image will be ruined forever in your eyes

[West]

I guess these passing of documents makes up for the lack of "passing" we see on the track.

Kinda sad as I'd rather see Kimi win some more w/o this drama in the background.

[ginsu]

Nigel Stepney emailed McLaren's chief designer Mike Coughlan on the eve of the season to tip him off about Ferrari's movable floor design, this week's Autosport magazine reveals.

That is the smoking gun, as far as I'm concerned. McLaren's letter to the FIA about the moveable floor controversy did seem a bit odd in it's specificity and timing.

This does not bode well for McLaren's defense!

This could play itself out so badly. Poor Ron, I'm almost sure he's had nothing to do with it too.

[modbaraban]

[important music]Ta-da-da-da!!![/important music]
( )

maybe the whole Ferrari-Stepney fight was made up and invented by...

Luca di Montezemolo or some other smart@$$ of Maranello to...

sabotage McLaren (by FIA penalty)!?