Italian GP 2008

[gcdugas]

@ West - if you call BMW.Williams a proper privateer team than you can possibly look no further than the last McLaren privateer win

OK, I agree Willy was a defacto factory team with BMW in 2004. But what is the standard? Is it that you use customer engines that another racing team supplies? If so do Jordan's 1999 wins as a Mugen engine count? It could be argued that those engines were on no other car and hence the car was a "factory" team car. I can see that the Stewart win with Hebert in 1999 might have been a customer team since Ford/Jag bought them out in 2000 but then again no one else had those engines. Can a team be a privateer team and have a factory exclusive engine and still be regarded as a privateer? If so then the privately owned Willy of 2004 counts but Mac wins don't since Merc has an equity stake in Mac and Mac is therefore not a privateer team.

What is the definition of a privateer team then?

Stewart 1999 y/n? (exclusive Cosworth)
Jordan 1999 y/n? (exclusive Mugen)
Mac. Peugeot 1994 y/n? (exclusive customer)
Mac. Ford 1993 y/n? (shared Ford in 1993)
Willy Honda 1986 y/n? (exclusive Honda 1986)
Willy Renault 1995 y/n? (shared engines with Benetton!)

[myurr]

I thought the differentiator was whether or not the team had to pay for their engines.

[gcdugas]

I thought the differentiator was whether or not the team had to pay for their engines.

How much do they have to pay? Ford Cosworth likely didn't charge Stewart much or anything at all. Mugen may have charged Jordan a pittance of what Prost or Sauber were paying for Ferrari engines at the time. How much "technical support" do the manufacturers supply as well? What about support during the design phase of the car? What if the manufacturer wants to subsidize the team by discounting the engines? It could easily be argued that political favoritism and influence are part of the deal for "customers". Williams seldom voted or even had a press release without first filtering things through BMW at the time. Peter Sauber resented accusations of on track "interference" such as waiting an extra corner or two before letting a Mac lap them while moving over immediately for Michael and Rubens. And then there is voting and we all know the pressure Ferrari engined teams are under to conform to orders from Maranello. All this has a benefit to the engine supplier that may cause them to charge less than they otherwise would. If they discount the real cost of their engines 20% is that OK? What about dropping 85% off the price tag? Suppose Stewart paid Ford $12M for engines but charged them $12M for the Cosworth decal space? Is that not a free engine available to no other? Are they then a manufacturer team?

If you say that you are a customer team when there is another "mother team" present on the grid such as Toyota or Ferrari are today, then that criteria would make the 2006 Williams Cosworth a "factory team" even though they paid dearly for their engines.

Suppose for a moment STR only paid $100 for their engines while FI paid $15M, would that make STR a "factory" or "manufacturer team"? I think not. Ferrari from Maranello are still on the grid.

Right now the four private teams, RBR, FI, STR and Williams are different from the factory teams in that the manufacturer has no equity stake in the team. But wait! If you argue that any equity stake a manufacturer has in a team prevents them from being regarded as a privateer team, then the 2000-2005 Williams BMW was a privateer effort.

It's just not that easy to define.

[Scuderia_Russ]

I don't know what's up w/ Williams. Ever since they made the walrus nose they've pretty much dropped to Jordan-like status.

It's not that bad!

[timbo]

It's not that bad!

Depending of what year of Jordan's history you compare it too. In 1998-1999 Jordan won races and HHF was even contender for the WDC.
I hoped this winter that Williams would be able to put up a fight against Toyota or Red Bull, but it never happened. I hope they do better next year, if they fail another time I think the team would be sold

[raymondu999]

Sorry to revive an old thread fellows. Does anyone know where I can get a video of Vettel's 2008 Monza pole lap? Cheers