What will come after the 2.4 V8?

[Scotracer]

Whatever happens, A Formula one engine has to be exotic, it has to be unique and to distinguish the formula from any other motor racing category. Using 2.4 V8s are detriment to that.

I want formula 1 engines to make a sound that sends shivers down my spine when i hear them, like they used to before 2006. For me that means the return of V10s and opening up the regulations to use Turbo's again.

They key here is limiting the amount of fuel a car can use during a whole weekend, not limiting engine development or capacity or configuration.

I Don't think I'm wrong in saying the vast majority of fans want V10s back. A question which is conveniently avoided in FOTA's and the FIA's fans surveys.

I think those of us who have grown up around the V10 era (I started watching F1 in 1994/5) are spoiled; back in the 60s through 80s the cars didn't have the same awe-inspiring sound as the early 00s. I too miss the V10s dearly but I think those days are over and won't be coming back: High-revving NA engines are not the done thing any more.

[Pandamasque]

I wouldn't say that pre-V10 F1 engines sounded uninspiring.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPpGPePFOGU[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo-q36exDtk[/youtube]

The problem with new possible 'sensible' formulae is that they will most likely sound totally uninspiring.

[countersteer]

@ Edis

Code: Select all

In 1994, with backing from Mercedes-Benz, Ilmor entered the Indy 500 with the now infamous 500I pushrod engine which was the first engine in history to achieve pole position and win the Indy 500 in its debut race. Raced by Al Unser Jr, it exceeded 1000bhp and had a top speed of 250mph

Yes, you are correct. But the pushrod engine was a one-off program run at that year's Indy 500 only. Penske/Mercedes exploited a loophole in the rules allowing "stock block" motors to run a larger displacement and/or boost (not sure on this). Little Al just cruised around all day. I believe the only similarity to the 2.65 motor was engine mounting...

Rumor was that the Ilmor engineers had never seen a pushrod motor before or even understand how it worked. Someone had to sketch it out for them. Obviously, they figured it out pretty fast. Google up some images to see how radical that design was as compared to a NASCAR pushrod motor...

[autogyro]

V10 half way between a V8 rumble and a V12 scream.
Neither close to the magic sound an H16 BRM made.
All history.
That 312 in the video was on tick over by the way.

[-KMR_NH-]

I'd like to see the V10s back. I used to start watching in in the 00s so I was kinda used to it right from the beginning and it was great. The sound was cool and the engines had power. At least more compared to the current V8s. And in my opinion F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport. Thus, it is ridiculously lame to race with only 750hp. 900hp or even 1000hp clearly show where the pinnacle is. Additionally, it's much more demanding to race a car with more than 750hp.

[WhiteBlue]

.. it is ridiculously lame to race with only 750hp. 900hp or even 1000hp clearly show where the pinnacle is. Additionally, it's much more demanding to race a car with more than 750hp.

It is all relative. I don't know what was more exciting, racing 16 cylinder 500 hp Autounion Type-D on skinny tyres.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvTggX3ADlY[/youtube]
For sound

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAs635BAwrw[/youtube]
For going sideways watch at 1:14

Or a 1300 hp 1,5L turbo beast with fat radial slicks.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwtDBA5xLgM[/youtube]
Watch at 0:31 how they would slide these beasts through corners just like the Type-Cs
It all depends of the view point.

Fact remains that a balance of power is needed with the aero rules, the car and circuit safety and the human capability to G force exposure. We can also take it as given that the fuel efficiency of F1 cars will have to improve significantly while the performance is supposed to remain at the pinacle of open wheel road racing.

Take all these things and the wish of the big auto manufacturers for a global racing engine of 1,6-2,0 L volume and you will find that anything beyond V6 or 4 in line with a turbo is highly unlikely. To bring back some exciting racing all you have to do is reduce the downforce and make harder tyres.

[Pierce89]

@ expensive... I seem to remember a 2.65 methanol V8 concept, mildly boosted, producing some 750 BHP?

I think you're referring to the Champ Car (CART) engine specification that was used until the demise of Champ Car. In the good ole days... Ford (Cosworth) Mercedes (Ilmor) Honda and Toyota fought it out with these engines. At the peak, they were rumored to produce 900+ horsepower, turning 14k rpm (with wire valvesprings). I don't recall what the boost limit was during this time. Oh yea, Chevy ran the Ilmor until Mercedes took over as the branding manufacturer.

believe it or not , boost limit was either 2 PSI when all motors were allowed, raised to 4 when Cossie was spec motor.

[Edis]

@ Edis

Code: Select all

In 1994, with backing from Mercedes-Benz, Ilmor entered the Indy 500 with the now infamous 500I pushrod engine which was the first engine in history to achieve pole position and win the Indy 500 in its debut race. Raced by Al Unser Jr, it exceeded 1000bhp and had a top speed of 250mph

Yes, you are correct. But the pushrod engine was a one-off program run at that year's Indy 500 only. Penske/Mercedes exploited a loophole in the rules allowing "stock block" motors to run a larger displacement and/or boost (not sure on this). Little Al just cruised around all day. I believe the only similarity to the 2.65 motor was engine mounting...

Rumor was that the Ilmor engineers had never seen a pushrod motor before or even understand how it worked. Someone had to sketch it out for them. Obviously, they figured it out pretty fast. Google up some images to see how radical that design was as compared to a NASCAR pushrod motor...

I'm well familiar with the design of the Mercedes 500I which was allowed to use both a higher displacement and a higher boost pressure. The regulation was really intended to allow the use of production based engines, like the Buick V6 also used, but the loophole was there and Ilmor where the ones exploiting it.

The loophole was removed later so the 500I engine became a one off, the engine was probably not far off from being banned even before it was used the first time, and it certainly didn't help that Ilmor, which was partly owned by Penske, only supplied these engines to the Penske team.

I can't imagine that the talk about the Ilmor guys not knowing how a push rod engine worked is anything else than complete nonsense.

It's harder to find information about the later indy engines, but there were some clever engineering involved there aswell. Honda did for instance design an intake manifold that created a low pressure zone just below the mandated pop off valve.

[domdogger]

on road engines homologated for racing. It would be too much like world rally.

It just wouldn't be special enough

[Pandamasque]

on road engines homologated for racing. It would be too much like world rally.

It just wouldn't be special enough

That would be much better than identical 4 in-line 1.6 turbos Now that would be too much like junior Formulae!

[domdogger]

personally, i don't see any thing wrong with the current engines. they seem to be reliable and pretty powerful.

[mx_tifoso]

personally, i don't see any thing wrong with the current engines. they seem to be reliable and pretty powerful.

I don't either, but the world is heading towards increasing efficiency in every aspect. The current package does not satisfy that trend as there is too much energy being wasted. And the current output levels could be accomplished with less displacement and cylinder count, but with turbocharging, which itself would help in recovering energy that would otherwise be wasted (exhaust gases).

[domdogger]

personally, i don't see any thing wrong with the current engines. they seem to be reliable and pretty powerful.

I don't either, but the world is heading towards increasing efficiency in every aspect. The current package does not satisfy that trend as there is too much energy being wasted. And the current output levels could be accomplished with less displacement and cylinder count, but with turbocharging, which itself would help in recovering energy that would otherwise be wasted (exhaust gases).

But honestly the cars are only being run for 6 hours 17 times a year, theres much more things in the world producing carbon dioxide, maybe flywheel electric motor systems (kers) could be away to go, but only if the FIA made it mandatory.

[domdogger]

personally, i don't see any thing wrong with the current engines. they seem to be reliable and pretty powerful.

I don't either, but the world is heading towards increasing efficiency in every aspect. The current package does not satisfy that trend as there is too much energy being wasted. And the current output levels could be accomplished with less displacement and cylinder count, but with turbocharging, which itself would help in recovering energy that would otherwise be wasted (exhaust gases).

But honestly the cars are only being run for 6 hours 17 times a year, theres much more things in the world producing carbon dioxide, maybe flywheel electric motor systems (kers) could be away to go, but only if the FIA made it mandatory.

[Lurk]

We all agree with that but F1 (and the other high-tech motorsport) has to be a technological show-room to road cars. So it now has to be "ecological"...

If 1.5 turbo engines are reintroduced, I'd vote for !