Flexible wings controversy 2010

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n_anirudh
n_anirudh
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Joined: 25 Jul 2008, 02:43

Re: Flexible wings controversy 2010

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http://www.springerlink.com/content/u6gpn2h21g87w178/
http://mccabism.blogspot.com/2010/07/ae ... in-f1.html


More insights into this effects. RB and Ferrari have designed the composites layups to provide this deformation. From a vary superficial understanding, it is in the design of the ABD matrix..which has been quoted here by other members (== differential orientation of the fibers)

xpensive
xpensive
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Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Flexible wings controversy 2010

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n_anirudh wrote:http://www.springerlink.com/content/u6gpn2h21g87w178/
http://mccabism.blogspot.com/2010/07/ae ... in-f1.html


More insights into this effects. RB and Ferrari have designed the composites layups to provide this deformation. From a vary superficial understanding, it is in the design of the ABD matrix..which has been quoted here by other members (== differential orientation of the fibers)
Xcellent, end of discussion I think.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

Richard
Richard
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Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 14:41
Location: UK

Re: Flexible wings controversy 2010

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Good spot. There could be a reinforcement rod in there with some slack in the end anchorage. That would act as a bump stop to prevent the wing end plate hitting the ground.

So we could have conventional stiff wing up to the FIA test location, then a very flexible wing beyond that point. You could imagine a scenario that maximum deflection is obtained at some silly low speed like 10kph.

Then add xpensive’s point about exploiting torsional forces to reduce wing pitch at high speed.

xpensive
xpensive
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Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Flexible wings controversy 2010

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I took some courses in composite-technology during my university-days back in the 80s, why I have a rudimentary understanding of how you can make engineered sections behave strangely under certain load conditions.

During this time, the Saab JAS jet-fighter was conceived in the same city, where they allegedly looked into employing this technology in order to make the wings bend downwards when subjected to the specific loads occuring during a heavy dive.

Think about it.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

Richard
Richard
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Re: Flexible wings controversy 2010

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Its easy to demonstrate torsional deformation under vertical loading. Take a C section element, for example the channel used for electrical trunking. Apply a lateral load at midpoint in the plane of the web and you’ll see the free end rotate and dip. You can recreate that in a composite section by a distribution of stiffness so that the shear centre is eccentric to the bending neutral axes.

The deflection I’ve described is linear and any design engineer working in an F1 team should be able to sketch out the maths from memory. Also any F1 engineer should be able to design a wing with stiffness varying along its length so the end part drops while the mid part complies with FIA testing.

All of the above is simple elastic analysis.

However, what we are suspecting is that the RB & Ferrari wing ends drop and stay in that place for a range of speeds. So the clever bit is that they have a way of controlling the deflection in a non-linear fashion, ideally it would be a virtual on/off. So when stationary, the car has a dimensionally compliant wing, but it switches to a ground effect wing as soon as the car moves. They will also need to be able to tune it to suit the track bumps/kerbs. A reinforcement rod with a bump stop would deliver that sort of behaviour.
Last edited by Richard on 29 Jul 2010, 12:35, edited 1 time in total.

segedunum
segedunum
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Joined: 03 Apr 2007, 13:49

Re: Flexible wings controversy 2010

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What's interesting is that the wings seem to flex on the outside edge through a corner, which should reduce quite a lot of understeer if they have the balance right. There is a picture of a Ferrari that clearly does this that I don't have at the moment.

Richard
Richard
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Re: Flexible wings controversy 2010

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I think the inside/outside wing heights on corners is more to do with crashing over kerbs.

As for handling, surely they would want to move the load to the inner unloaded wheel? That would give 4 wheels in full contact with the ground, not 3? In that case you'd want the inner wing to be closer to the ground not higher?

jason.parker.86
jason.parker.86
1
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 21:57

Re: Flexible wings controversy 2010

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Is it not possible to make the wing hollow inside, and have like an "F-duct" type system where you can force wind into the front wing to make it bend?

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Flexible wings controversy 2010

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you don´t need to ...the windforce will exert a forc in direction of movement of the vehicle(drag) that is the trigger,as the force trying to bend the wing rearwards is redirected via clever carbonfibre orientation into a bending moment...

stumbled over a 1920s invention :parker variable wing ... very intriguing that..1920... :lol:

http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http ... sgbg0Zm6AQ

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker_Variable_Wing
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi. ... 091138.pdf
Last edited by marcush. on 29 Jul 2010, 15:45, edited 3 times in total.

Richard
Richard
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Re: Flexible wings controversy 2010

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Its not just drag, there will also be a downforce component. The combined forces will contribute to the movement of the end plate.

marcush.
marcush.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Flexible wings controversy 2010

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richard_leeds wrote:Its not just drag, there will also be a downforce component. The combined forces will contribute to the movement of the end plate.
of course.

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747heavy
24
Joined: 06 Jul 2010, 21:45

Re: Flexible wings controversy 2010

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marcush. wrote:you don´t need to ...the windforce will exert a forc in direction of movement of the vehicle(drag) that is the trigger,as the force trying to bend the wing rearwards is redirected via clever carbonfibre orientation into a bending moment...

Yes it´s doable, and composite´s can be designed in that way - no doubt.
I´m sure most composite engineers in F1 will know, how to do it, if ask to do so.

But I like your observation, in regards to the small opening in the RBR FW Marcus.
First of all, that looks petty close to the point where the test load is applied,but this
is not so much what I was thinking.

In a crude way, you could run a cable/fibre/rod inside a partly hollow wing with a preloaded spring at the end, to pre-tension the wing, and help it pass the test.
If you overcome the spring preload the wing will bend much more until the spring blocks out or another stop is hit.
With this you could control the max deflection of the wing as well.
(Think double beam -> single beam -> double beam again)
it goes along the lines what Richard said as well

This is maybe needed to prevent breaking of the wing under extreme/higher loads and to comply with another aspect of the rules (see below). They can´t make the endplates touch the ground, and they can´t run them lower then the plank (reference plane) at any time, as this would be against the rules. I know it´s difficult to prove, but photos, may just do that. The term "at any time" leaves room for interpretation.


3.15 Aerodynamic influence :
With the exception of the cover described in Article 6.5.2 (when used in the pit lane), the driver adjustable
bodywork described in Article 3.18 and the ducts described in Article 11.4, any specific part of the car
influencing its aerodynamic performance :
- must comply with the rules relating to bodywork ;
- must be rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car (rigidly secured means not having any degree of freedom) ;
- must remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car.

Any device or construction that is designed to bridge the gap between the sprung part of the car and the ground is prohibited under all circumstances.

No part having an aerodynamic influence and no part of the bodywork, with the exception of the skid block in 3.13 above, may under any circumstances be located below the reference plane.

As for the inital deflection test, note that it includes an adapter, provided by the teams.

>>>The load will be applied in a
downward direction using a 50mm diameter ram and an adapter 300mm long and 150mm wide. Teams
must supply the latter when such a test is deemed necessary.<<<<<<

This is a fairly large piece, and can be designed to transfere the test load in beneficial ways, or/and to bridge/support any hinge point which may exists along the wing. So this test is not that difficult to pass, and still have the desired flex of the wing.
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
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marcush.
marcush.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Flexible wings controversy 2010

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I´d say we are pretty close now .. :mrgreen: ,so no question the boffins at macs
have figured it out as well now..and burn the midnight oil for spa and monza ..

what I find striking is: also in earlier pictures and videos it seemed as if left and right winghalfs did not bend equally...that can´t be random ?

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747heavy
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Joined: 06 Jul 2010, 21:45

Re: Flexible wings controversy 2010

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if we assume they use a system inside the wing, with an preload/endstop system, that would be fairly easy to tune. You could tune the point when it starts to bend (preload) and the max bending independend (L vs. R) and track specific.
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

marcush.
marcush.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Flexible wings controversy 2010

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:roll: :roll:
to the drawing board.. err cad workstation!