Is nuclear the way to go?

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autogyro
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flynfrog wrote:
autogyro wrote:Most people with national or personal interests vested in nuclear power do xpensive.
much like the people with a vested interested in wind solar or other dead starter energies lets not forget the oil barons. :roll:


Great Post Edis I gave up trying to have a true technical discussion on the forum a long time ago. To many people connived that their opinion is fact.
Haha hi flynn, getting boring down at the pond is it?
Hmmm, a technical discusion on nuclear power, that would be good.
Do we confine it to the government reports and their paid scientists to suit the figures, or let the ordinary people who are directly effected comment?
Oh sorry we are not allowed that are we flynn, adds to many values.

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flynfrog
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autogyro wrote:
flynfrog wrote:
autogyro wrote:Most people with national or personal interests vested in nuclear power do xpensive.
much like the people with a vested interested in wind solar or other dead starter energies lets not forget the oil barons. :roll:


Great Post Edis I gave up trying to have a true technical discussion on the forum a long time ago. To many people connived that their opinion is fact.
Haha hi flynn, getting boring down at the pond is it?
Hmmm, a technical discusion on nuclear power, that would be good.
Do we confine it to the government reports and their paid scientists to suit the figures, or let the ordinary people who are directly effected comment?
Oh sorry we are not allowed that are we flynn, adds to many values.
quote anything you like. There is a difference between a scientific report and a news article quoting some paranoid old man who thinks the power plant killed his gold fish. I once dug though many reports and posted in a similar thread as this one I am not going to bother anymore. Nuclear power is much safer per KWH dust to dust than any other power source.

autogyro
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Dont keep gold fish but I have a couple of neighbours who glow in the dark.

xxChrisxx
xxChrisxx
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autogyro wrote:Hmmm, a technical discusion on nuclear power, that would be good.
Do we confine it to the government reports and their paid scientists to suit the figures, or let the ordinary people who are directly effected comment?
Ordinary people are idiots, seriously the vast majority of the public couldn't find their arse with both hands.

This is the thought process of an ordinary person, who wouldn't know a technical argument if it came up and punched them in the face.

Deny argument exists.
Get beaten over the head with overwhelming amounts of evidence to the contrary.
Aknowledge argument, but then say it's a conspiracy.
Repeat affirmation of conspiricy ad nauseum.
Claim victory.

This happens for: oil, nuclear, vaccines, aliens, you name it they have a conspiricy about it.


I'd also like to point out that nothing you have said in this thread is even remotely technical. It's your opinion and you are entitled to it. But please don't claim conspiricy where there is none.

There are 2 reasons that we don't have vast nuclear plants in the UK, even though they are clearly superior.
1. We've always had a vast resource of coal - making it cheap.
2. People are --- scared by the word Nuclear beacuse it's commonly followed by the word bomb.

That's it. Now coal is becoming expensive there are no good reasons NOT to switch to nuclear.

France's electricity has been 80% Nuclear since the 70's, with about a few notable incidents, but caused precisely 0 fatalities. Infact discounting Chernobyl, you can count the deaths caused by Nuclear reactors since the 60's on two hands.

More people have been killed by vending machines in the same timeframe.

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Ciro Pabón
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Firstly:

Well, solar vs nuclear. Can anyone calculate the size of the solar panel needed to supply London energy needs?

I can.

Let's see: googling quickly I find that London uses 154 Tw-h per year (in 1999, but give me some leeway, will ya?).

Then I check the trusty Enerank site.

Yes, the largest photovoltaic generator in the world by peak power is, naturally, in Spain (have I mentioned we're FIFA world champions already? That's two in a row: solar energy AND football champions).

Olmedilla photovoltaic park is, probably, one of the most efficient photovoltaic systems in the world, because of its size. How large is it? At a mere 180 Hectares, it gives you 85Gw-h.

Image

So, let's see:

Area of photovoltaic cells to satisfy London energy needs: 154 Tw-h/85 Gw-H * 180 Ha = 326.000 Ha, give or take.

Hmmmm.... A square km has 100 Ha last time I checked. So, we need 3260 Km2 of solar cells for London. That's like a third of the West Midlands, in dear old England. Caramba, I'd say. They're a little ugly, don't you think? Compared with the landscape of the previous picture (I'd say you have to imagine yourself walking by these things) even a wind farm or an electric transmission line seems pretty.

If we do the same exercise for the EU, with its 1800 Mtoe used annualy (a Mtoe is 11604 Gw-h), or 21.000 Tw-h, how large is the solar plant we need?

Area to use for Europe energy needs satisfied with solar power? Simple: 444.000 square kilometers.

That's twice the size of the United Kingdom or two thirds of France. I surely would vote for it: let's cover England, Scotland, Wales and the northern part of France (I'd spare Northern Ireland) with photovoltaic cells. Surely health effects are negligible and psychological effects are overstated: most Britons and Parisians I know seem pale and a tad crazy already: they could live under such a roof of sun panels.

Practical? Ecological? You tell me.

Secondly:

Some of us are terrified by the thought of people starting to use nuclear power, ain't we? Surely I am. I don't want Bin Laden to interfere with my Playstation 24x7 usage...

Terrified we are. Let's not use nuclear power! Can we? Sure we can. Or maybe not...

How much nuclear power does Europe use for electric power today? 5%, perhaps?

No. More.

10%?

No. More.

20%?

Almost there. Go upwards, please.

A whooping 30% of Europe's electricity comes from nuclear power? Seriously? Ciro, do you actually mean nuclear power is the main source of electricity in Europe? Are you kidding me?

Yes. That's it: 30%. And, yes, I'm probably kidding you anyway.

You don't believe me? Fool, check the European Energy Commission statistics for 2009: http://ec.europa.eu/energy/publications ... k_2010.pdf (page 30).

Let's write this again, but use the bold thingy: Europe main source of electricity is nuclear power, not tomorrow, nor next year, but today.

Food for Edis's thought: perhaps all that plutonium around explains guys like Berlusconi and Sarkozy. ;)

Who would have believed it? One in three words written in an european computer (hi, autogyro!) is "powered" by nuclear energy! Their computers (hi, autogyro!) reek of "nuclear electrons", going in and out, all of them carrying their tiny "Danger!" signs.

No wonder them, europeans, (hi, autogyro!) seem already radioactive...

So, I wonder if we're green (very green).

Third:

I live in a country that gets 65% of its electricity from renewable sources. Why? Go figure. Anyway, Colombia uses hydropower: by chance and a particular guy, it is a nuclear free zone (is not like we can afford it: the grapes are green, said the fox, but we took the time to write this law...) and last time I checked the country wasn't submerged in water nor covered with photovoltaic cells.

Frankly, to me, all sources of energy have pros and cons, but hydro, I like. You lose some trees and animals but hopefully you win some algae and fish, if you're smart enough. It's peaceful, at least.

And, let's be frank, to end this post: I think we will continue to use nuclear energy and engineers of the future will find a way around our fears of misuse, gross mismanagement and lack of thorough understanding of consequences, the same way engineers of today have done with carbon energy plants and global warming (that's a joke, of course).

However, Edis, no matter what you or me think in "engineering terms", our use of energy is also commanded by our perception of it and the idea of what's shining (lurking?) in the core of a nuclear plant gives you the creeps, if you ponder it for a while. Nuclear energy, I'd say, is not "as human" as a fire or a water-wheel, things that somehow are already in us. It will take time, I guess.

Image
Hi, autogyro!
Ciro

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WhiteBlue
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It is depressing to read what Edis answered to my post. It is just the same one sided information that oozes unlimited positivism about the human capability to control plutonium based power generation and its waste for millenia. At no point have I read of any potential risks that needs to be contained by careful FMEA. To deny that combustible liquid metal coolants constitute a huge risk potential from accidental leaks caused by earth quakes, technical failures or military and terrorist attacks negates any credibility that his obvious in depth knowledge created. The posted information sounds like a direct copy from the hand book of a payed nuclear lobbyist. To the day I have not heard of a single proponent of nuclear technology who took up residence near Chernobyl to demonstrate how safe you can live there. I have not studied nuclear engineering and I cannot argue on the level that professional lobbyist have but I get skeptical when people do not see obvious risks and tell us that handling ten thousands of tons of high radioactive extremely long lived materials is a piece of cake for them. I live 70 km from the next big nuclear power station Ohu and it isn't the most comfortable situation when they have incidents like they had last time six months ago. You just hope that the safety procedures are good enough. That particular plant btw was almost hit by a military aircraft crash in 1988 when a Mirage fighter went down in a forrest 2 km from the reactor. So I'm not totally unconcerned with the "residual" risks.
Last edited by WhiteBlue on 10 Sep 2010, 04:30, edited 1 time in total.
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flynfrog
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WhiteBlue wrote:grasping at straws
It has been studied since a 50s that reactors or safer than any other power generation system. People get scared when they hear scary words. I live next to a dump site and have no worries about contamination. much more worried about cfl light bulbs dumping mercury into the water supply

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Ciro Pabón
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Oh, c'mon, WB, denial won't take you far. Edis demolished your arguments, period. Why is it so hard to find the tiniest concession to clearcut arguments in your posts? Why do your posts have to resort to try to irritate people? I haven't moderated for a long time, but tonight I'll make an exception with you, before mx_tifosi notices.
Ciro

Giblet
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A good friend of mine in this small Canadian city (the one where Rim is making all those Blackberrys the world finds so appealing) is the first here to install solar panels on his roof, and considering Canadians have some of the highest energy use per capita in the world due to our heating and air conditioning needs, it's quite impressive that he gets $80 a month from the electrical utility averaged throughout the year.

I'm just pointing out that if more people were responsible for at least some of their own power if not most, maybe these fantastical seeming solar fields and wind farms might not have to be the same ridiculous size that Ciro has calculated.

My understanding is that an array of mirrors directing light to a vessel of water that makes steam to turn a turbine makes far more energy per square unit of measure than photovoltaic cells do.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

l4mbch0ps
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autogyro wrote:...but I have a couple of neighbours who glow in the dark.
Uuuuuhhh... no you don't.

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WhiteBlue
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Ciro, your POV is well known on the issue. I'm happy for you if if you can live without concerns and that you do not want to know more about risk side. It seems to be all convincing for you. Please also respect people who have some skepticism and do not believe in everything the nuclear lobby publishes. We have been lied to many times and that is an experience that is hard to overcome.

The reason I'm not going to argue with Edis is simple. He seems to know a lot more than I do about the issue. That does not mean that all his points and opinions are correct. I simply do not have the necessary depth to argue with him. Nevertheless his posts do very little to alleviate my concerns. I will leave it to more knowledgable people to argue the anti nuclear position.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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flynfrog
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WhiteBlue wrote:conspiracy theory nuclear barons can I get a magic gearbox?
While I admit its easy to accept something you agree with I have yet to see any study claiming that reactors are any more dangerous than coal power. please prove me wrong one accredited study showing coal to be worse than a nuclear power.

xxChrisxx
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WhiteBlue wrote:It is depressing to read what Edis answered to my post. It is just the same one sided information that oozes unlimited positivism about the human capability to control plutonium based power generation and its waste for millenia. At no point have I read of any potential risks that needs to be contained by careful FMEA. To deny that combustible liquid metal coolants constitute a huge risk potential from accidental leaks caused by earth quakes, technical failures or military and terrorist attacks negates any credibility that his obvious in depth knowledge created. The posted information sounds like a direct copy from the hand book of a payed nuclear lobbyist. To the day I have not heard of a single proponent of nuclear technology who took up residence near Chernobyl to demonstrate how safe you can live there. I have not studied nuclear engineering and I cannot argue on the level that professional lobbyist have but I get skeptical when people do not see obvious risks and tell us that handling ten thousands of tons of high radioactive extremely long lived materials is a piece of cake for them. I live 70 km from the next big nuclear power station Ohu and it isn't the most comfortable situation when they have incidents like they had last time six months ago. You just hope that the safety procedures are good enough. That particular plant btw was almost hit by a military aircraft crash in 1988 when a Mirage fighter went down in a forrest 2 km from the reactor. So I'm not totally unconcerned with the "residual" risks.
What Edis posted was a well informed scientific approach. What you are posting is utter --- crap.

Also, although not exactly a conspiracy theory can you see the similarities in your posting on this subject to date and:
Chris wrote: Deny argument exists.
Get beaten over the head with overwhelming amounts of evidence to the contrary.
Aknowledge argument, but then say it's a conspiracy.
Repeat affirmation of conspiricy ad nauseum.
Claim victory.
Nuclear's recorded safety record > Your anecdonts based on personal feelings.
WB wrote:
The reason I'm not going to argue with Edis is simple. He seems to know a lot more than I do about the issue. That does not mean that all his points and opinions are correct. I simply do not have the necessary depth to argue with him.
Seriously? You freely admit that you know much less than someone who makes an informed post, but chose not to believe it anyway and basically say it's bullshit? How do you know when you've freeely admitted you know much less than Edis?
Nevertheless his posts do very little to alleviate my concerns. I will leave it to more knowledgable people to argue the anti nuclear position.
So what level of evidence would you requite to 'alleviate your concerns?

It seems that a recoded history of far fewer deaths than any other power generation method over a 40 year time period. Around 10,000 reactor years with farrealistically speaking maybe 3 major incidents of note.

autogyro
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Recorded history being the crucial thing Chris.
Even I have talked to nuclear workers who know of cover ups.
I simply do not believe the figures released.

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flynfrog
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autogyro wrote:Recorded history being the crucial thing Chris.
Even I have talked to nuclear workers who know of cover ups.
I simply do not believe the figures released.
try this site www.abovetopsecret.com they love conspiracy bs

I challenge you to give one reputable piece of evidence. You talking to some one is not really evidence now is it. Why do you not believe the stats posted doesn't agree with the reality in your mind?