no such thing ??
A recent Japanese article mentioned ‘extra deploy’ which is theoretically just as straightforward. We have no way of knowing if it was ever deployed, but then that is true of so much of what happens with these PUs.
Isn't that what they have now?yamahasho wrote: ↑31 Aug 2022, 17:31So everyone's thinking they're going to do something like this to counteract the turbo lag issue:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/523 ... a406_b.jpg
Been used plenty of times in production cars. Or against the regs?
Or perhaps a anti-lag (which I call a blown turbo) by dumping fuel in on deceleration but this sounds implausible because it wastes fuel but who knows.
Far as I know currently it’s a thermoelectric generator using temperature differences using the hot exhaust gases versus some exotic material for the cold side. Very expensive. I believe it uses that electricity generated back into the system.wuzak wrote: ↑01 Sep 2022, 00:46Isn't that what they have now?yamahasho wrote: ↑31 Aug 2022, 17:31So everyone's thinking they're going to do something like this to counteract the turbo lag issue:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/523 ... a406_b.jpg
Been used plenty of times in production cars. Or against the regs?
Or perhaps a anti-lag (which I call a blown turbo) by dumping fuel in on deceleration but this sounds implausible because it wastes fuel but who knows.
The turbo will not have a motor attached to it.
They may use something like the cold blowing that was used during the blown diffuser days, but that depends on what they come up with for the throttle rules.
Cannot transfer energy to or from rotating components?5.5 Turbocharger
5.5.1 Pressure charging may only be affected by the use of a sole single stage, single sided compressor with a single inlet linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly. The compressor blades must be attached to a common hub surface and all air entering the combustion chamber must pass through the single exducer of these blades. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity. The energy of the rotating parts of the turbocharger may not be transferrable to any other component. Only parts approved by the FIA Technical Department may be used. Subject for provision of the Article 17.3.5, the approval of the FIA Technical Department is conditional upon the PU manufacturer, intending to use such parts during a Championship season undertaking not to conclude any exclusivity agreement (see definition article 5.1.30) for the supply of such parts with the supplier of these parts. The approval request form must be sent by the PU Manufacturer to the FIA before the 1st of November of the preceding year.
Where is that from? Are there more detailed regulations available now beyond this?wuzak wrote: ↑01 Sep 2022, 05:07Cannot transfer energy to or from rotating components?5.5 Turbocharger
5.5.1 Pressure charging may only be affected by the use of a sole single stage, single sided compressor with a single inlet linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly. The compressor blades must be attached to a common hub surface and all air entering the combustion chamber must pass through the single exducer of these blades. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity. The energy of the rotating parts of the turbocharger may not be transferrable to any other component. Only parts approved by the FIA Technical Department may be used. Subject for provision of the Article 17.3.5, the approval of the FIA Technical Department is conditional upon the PU manufacturer, intending to use such parts during a Championship season undertaking not to conclude any exclusivity agreement (see definition article 5.1.30) for the supply of such parts with the supplier of these parts. The approval request form must be sent by the PU Manufacturer to the FIA before the 1st of November of the preceding year.
Also, parts have to be approved by FIA.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -08-16.pdfmzso wrote: ↑01 Sep 2022, 12:19Where is that from? Are there more detailed regulations available now beyond this?wuzak wrote: ↑01 Sep 2022, 05:07Cannot transfer energy to or from rotating components?5.5 Turbocharger
5.5.1 Pressure charging may only be affected by the use of a sole single stage, single sided compressor with a single inlet linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly. The compressor blades must be attached to a common hub surface and all air entering the combustion chamber must pass through the single exducer of these blades. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity. The energy of the rotating parts of the turbocharger may not be transferrable to any other component. Only parts approved by the FIA Technical Department may be used. Subject for provision of the Article 17.3.5, the approval of the FIA Technical Department is conditional upon the PU manufacturer, intending to use such parts during a Championship season undertaking not to conclude any exclusivity agreement (see definition article 5.1.30) for the supply of such parts with the supplier of these parts. The approval request form must be sent by the PU Manufacturer to the FIA before the 1st of November of the preceding year.
Also, parts have to be approved by FIA.
Doesn't seem like a showstopper to me, nor do I think that any but the warm-up time is inherent to the technology.*
Thanks.
Good find, it doesn’t say to OR from it just says TO, so an external motor, which can be made as decoupled, is not getting any energy from the turbine unless the system purposely energizes a current to make it a generator.wuzak wrote: ↑01 Sep 2022, 05:07Cannot transfer energy to or from rotating components?5.5 Turbocharger
5.5.1 Pressure charging may only be affected by the use of a sole single stage, single sided compressor with a single inlet linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly. The compressor blades must be attached to a common hub surface and all air entering the combustion chamber must pass through the single exducer of these blades. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity. The energy of the rotating parts of the turbocharger may not be transferrable to any other component. Only parts approved by the FIA Technical Department may be used. Subject for provision of the Article 17.3.5, the approval of the FIA Technical Department is conditional upon the PU manufacturer, intending to use such parts during a Championship season undertaking not to conclude any exclusivity agreement (see definition article 5.1.30) for the supply of such parts with the supplier of these parts. The approval request form must be sent by the PU Manufacturer to the FIA before the 1st of November of the preceding year.
Also, parts have to be approved by FIA.
Startup times where the main issue I was referring to. I’ve found a few papers discussing fast start up SOFC units (5mins) but they are tiny 10W cells.mzso wrote: ↑01 Sep 2022, 12:39Doesn't seem like a showstopper to me, nor do I think that any but the warm-up time is inherent to the technology.*
F1 needs constant high power. Obviously they wouldn't run the motors directly by only a fuel cell, no FCEV ever worked that way. I believe someone here calculated it before and you need around 400kW constant power at worst (Monza). And enough batteries to buffer for the braking zones.
*Not sure "why the slow to respond" is even there. Obviously you can turn it down quickly by cutting fuel. And if you don't have it turned down to an extended time you can turn it right back up.
I would imagine if such fuel cell tech would happen it would be fully insulated. And any excess heat would be removed (maybe with energy recovery) by extra airflow
Depends of fuel. It could be bioethanol or synthetic petrol.
Very much so.
9MJ recovery seems like a stretch to me.
= ballast then.wuzak wrote: ↑01 Sep 2022, 05:07Cannot transfer energy to or from rotating components?5.5 Turbocharger
5.5.1 Pressure charging may only be affected by the use of a sole single stage, single sided compressor with a single inlet linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly. The compressor blades must be attached to a common hub surface and all air entering the combustion chamber must pass through the single exducer of these blades. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity. The energy of the rotating parts of the turbocharger may not be transferrable to any other component. Only parts approved by the FIA Technical Department may be used. Subject for provision of the Article 17.3.5, the approval of the FIA Technical Department is conditional upon the PU manufacturer, intending to use such parts during a Championship season undertaking not to conclude any exclusivity agreement (see definition article 5.1.30) for the supply of such parts with the supplier of these parts. The approval request form must be sent by the PU Manufacturer to the FIA before the 1st of November of the preceding year.
Also, parts have to be approved by FIA.
