Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
bergie88
bergie88
8
Joined: 25 Aug 2014, 12:20

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

godlameroso wrote:
bergie88 wrote: Seriously? A normal turbo engine without a MGU-H the turbine would be sized to efficiently produce the required power for the compressor to produce the required boost for the fuel flow. The rest of the exhaust is sent through the waste gate. To efficiently harvest energy for the MGU-H you will require a bigger turbine to make use of all the exhaust gases. This doesn't effect the compressor in any way at all as the fuel flow is fixed and so the boost required for it. As such to extract more energy for the MGU-H you require a large turbine Not a larger compressor.
Therefore Ferrari's problem last year of not being able to get enough energy from the MGU-H come down to having a too small turbine and has nothing to do with the size of the compressor.

You could have ultra lean running if you design your combustion chambers, and DI system to have a type of stratified charge, so you can burn at or a little bit above stochiometric in part of the chamber, as long as you can control and precisely burn fuel at the right amount, and introduce boost pressure without making the overall AF mixture too lean, I don't see the downside to running as much boost pressure as possible given the PU configuration.
Maybe knock is a problem?

tuj
tuj
15
Joined: 15 Jun 2007, 15:50

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

It was said that when Mclaren was running the Merc unit, they were down 40hp just because of lubricants and specifically the fuel. I believe Mclaren couldn't run as high of boost using their contracted Mobil fuel as opposed to the factory teams specifically designed Petronas fuel.

User avatar
godlameroso
309
Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

bergie88 wrote:
godlameroso wrote:
bergie88 wrote: Seriously? A normal turbo engine without a MGU-H the turbine would be sized to efficiently produce the required power for the compressor to produce the required boost for the fuel flow. The rest of the exhaust is sent through the waste gate. To efficiently harvest energy for the MGU-H you will require a bigger turbine to make use of all the exhaust gases. This doesn't effect the compressor in any way at all as the fuel flow is fixed and so the boost required for it. As such to extract more energy for the MGU-H you require a large turbine Not a larger compressor.
Therefore Ferrari's problem last year of not being able to get enough energy from the MGU-H come down to having a too small turbine and has nothing to do with the size of the compressor.

You could have ultra lean running if you design your combustion chambers, and DI system to have a type of stratified charge, so you can burn at or a little bit above stochiometric in part of the chamber, as long as you can control and precisely burn fuel at the right amount, and introduce boost pressure without making the overall AF mixture too lean, I don't see the downside to running as much boost pressure as possible given the PU configuration.
Maybe knock is a problem?
Again it all depends on the fuel you're using, and how your combustion concept works. If you have no pre-chamber and just straight up DI fuel with air charge you're 101% correct, knock is a big problem. But if you design your chamber in a certain way you can run very lean without knocking because the fuel is being burned at the correct ratio in the pre-chamber and the flame front expands into the main chamber, so although the overall charge that is acting on the piston is rather lean, combustion itself is at or near stochiometric.
Saishū kōnā

tuj
tuj
15
Joined: 15 Jun 2007, 15:50

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

godlameroso wrote:If you have no pre-chamber and just straight up DI fuel with air charge you're 101% correct, knock is a big problem. But if you design your chamber in a certain way you can run very lean without knocking because the fuel is being burned at the correct ratio in the pre-chamber and the flame front expands into the main chamber, so although the overall charge that is acting on the piston is rather lean, combustion itself is at or near stochiometric.
By "pre-chamber" do you mean before the intake valves? Injection in the intake plenum is not allowed any more, is it?

alexx_88
alexx_88
12
Joined: 28 Aug 2011, 10:46
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

He's probably referring to how a DI system with suitable piston design allows to have a stratified charge with different lambda values across the chamber.

Image

User avatar
Abarth
45
Joined: 25 Feb 2011, 19:47

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

I don't think they use wall- or air guided combustion. With these high pressures, I think they have adopted for a spray guided combustion, giving more freedom for optimized piston crown and chamber design.

taperoo2k
taperoo2k
14
Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 17:33

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Interesting article about the power unit, with a rumour about Honda using a test mule -
http://www.somersf1.co.uk/2015/09/mclar ... n-and.html

User avatar
Thunder
Moderator
Joined: 06 Feb 2013, 09:50
Location: Germany

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

This is a short new Honda movie. Maybe something can extracted out of it. They show some PU Parts and drawings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRDluXz ... e=youtu.be
turbof1 wrote: YOU SHALL NOT......STALLLLL!!!
#aerogollum

sectionate
sectionate
1
Joined: 03 Sep 2013, 17:33

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

https://twitter.com/F1___Talk/status/643764655349977089 One of their CAD drawings from the video.

(I always take these with a pinch of salt, I expect the drawing model is a good 6 months out of date)

User avatar
Thunder
Moderator
Joined: 06 Feb 2013, 09:50
Location: Germany

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

The Exhaust / Turbo arrangement in that Picture has nothing to do with the actual PU. Looks more like a test setup from the earliest days.
turbof1 wrote: YOU SHALL NOT......STALLLLL!!!
#aerogollum

Facts Only
Facts Only
188
Joined: 03 Jul 2014, 10:25

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Thats a dyno set-up, probably an early test engine from years ago before the turbo was integrated into the PU properly.

Apart from the seperated turbo the probe bosses all over the exhaust and the fact that thre is room for the actual dynamometer underneath the turbo are the giveaways.

I managed to pause on a couple of the quickly flashing drawings and it looked like single cylinder stuff.

We can also tell that they are using CATIA V5 and that whoever has done the CAD hasn't been hiding there planes in the model.
"A pretentious quote taken out of context to make me look deep" - Some old racing driver

Sixbarboost
Sixbarboost
6
Joined: 12 Aug 2015, 16:33

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

I still believe the Honda PU began as this, a hobby-design which Honda took way too serious;

Image

dero
dero
13
Joined: 24 Nov 2012, 22:31

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

frame with telemetry/graphs from the video, dont know how to get embeddable link from google drive files.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzJbWV ... sp=sharing

User avatar
Abarth
45
Joined: 25 Feb 2011, 19:47

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

dero wrote:frame with telemetry/graphs from the video, dont know how to get embeddable link from google drive files.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzJbWV ... sp=sharing
Very interesting, thanks.
I don't even know how to extract frames from a video, go figure....

Are there more frames of this telemetry? I remember an older video, but this seems much better readable.

User avatar
FW17
169
Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 10:56

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Someone previously wanted to know the exhaust pressure

Intake pressure 1.24 bar
Exhaust pressure L 1.16 bar
Exhaust pressure R 1.19 bar

Oil temp - 79 deg
water temp - 95 deg

Looks like fuel is heated to about 70deg c, would have expected it to be at ambient temp.