2017 F1 general testing thread

[PhillipM]

+1.

If the first time you try turning everything up to maximum attack is Q3 you are going to be pretty stuffed if it doesn't work. Also you would have no time to tune the setup of your car / PU for this condition.

I think what we actually see time and again is that the top times from testing are actually genuine "how fast will it go" times. I suspect that Massa's recent lap was Williams testing their ultimate pace.

Well that's rather the point of making sure your tyre/engine/chassis/aero sim correlation is on point, hence all the flow vis, and long runs for tyre deg - if they are you don't need to run flat out, you just need a few data points that are close.

I'm amazed how many people on here are surprised about something that's happened probably as far back as I can remember in F1. This is exactly why most of the pre-season analysis concentrates on long run times.
It's very easy to correlate, go and look at the gaps from the front runners to the back of the grid in qualifying. Then go back and look at the testing time differences and see how much smaller the gap is than it actually turned out to be...

Red Bull, Williams, Merc and Mclaren have all already said they're not bolting race-spec parts on until practice in Melbourne.


edit - even just flicking back over last years testing times, we have Kimi 9/10ths of a second faster than a certain Mr. Hamilton.
Come qualifying it was 1.2 seconds in Hamiltons favour.
We have Hulkenberg setting the same times as Rosberg in testing. In qualifying he's 1.6 seconds away...
Williams are setting times on par with Mercedes, guess what, come qualifying? Yes, 1.6 seconds per lap again.

Anyone setting store in testing laptimes as being definitive or flat out needs their head checking.

[dren]

Yes, recently Red Bull has pushed increased their aero development time and introduced parts very late in testing, or at the first race.

A number of teams will be introducing updates only in Melbourne, Williams and Mclaren among them.

I'm unconvinced about this direction, but let's see if it pays off.

If history is anything to go by, yes, it has paid off for teams.

[Unc1eM0nty]

No, testing is about correlation, reliability and finding your setup windows, outright performance doesn't really need to be tested so long as you're close, long run tyre degradation is more important, most big teams will only bring final spec parts and turn the engines right up come Melbourne, it's not exactly a secret, this happens every, single, year.
Even more so this year when you have a big aero and tyre change.

With this being an aero dependent era with low tyre degradation surely the teams should be pushing their cars close to qualifying pace as race pace won't be as vital with it being harder to overtake?

Oh they'll all be giving it the "full beans" at some point over the next few days that's for sue, they'll want to know where they are compared to the other cars, they'll hide it of course with heavy fuel or at the start of a longer run, but fuel adjusted they'll know what time they're capable of .

Consistent qualifying will have a big impact on the drivers title, on the tracks that are hard to overtake on, and there are a lot of these, a poor starting position will be hard to recover from.

[Phil]

I think we should look at Honda troubles as troubling for F1 as a whole. We need to look at the facts.

1: In 2010 3 teams entered F1 (LotusF1, Virgin Racing and Hispania) as of 2017 all of those teams are out of F1.
2: Honda re-entered F1 in 2015 as PU supplier and 3 years later they stil have not achieved reasonable performance.

F1 rules are therefore insufficient for new entrants. I don't know why the F1 fraternity lets this even happen. F1 needs manufacturers to successful in order to attract more new entrants. However, F1 lets Honda struggle for 3 years. Its just stupid and robs F1 fans of a team of the caliber of McLaren to be not competitive. This is situation were there are no winners.....

Let Honda and future new entrants to F1 test more in order to catch-up and make it more easier for new entrants to be competitive. I don't like artificial tricks like weight penalty ectera. But, give new teams or PU manufactures a 12 month testing period. Japanese companies have a lot of pride, I don't see Honda in F1 in 2018 if 2017 is as horrible as 2015. They will simply pull to plug and focus maybe on Formula E or WEC.

Great post. I mostly agree with it, but I think some of the inherent problems is that the sport has become too reliant on engine manufacturers. If Honda was given special treatment, then the other engine manufacturers wouldn't have been pleased. Fail if you do, fail if you don't. I think equal price money distribution is also a big issue and some of the causes why those 3 teams that entered F1 all left again. The cost required to enter and do well is just immense.

Eric Boullier was interviewed by Crofty yesterday and he ruled out McLaren being able to build its own engines because these PUs are just too complex. It's not only about the money and R&D required to start building - it's also about having the resources and the capacity. And he also mentioned that perhaps these engines aren't too relevant for McLarens road program (to the point they'd want to invest in them, like for example Mercedes and Renault do).

[dren]

If the first time you try turning everything up to maximum attack is Q3 you are going to be pretty stuffed if it doesn't work. Also you would have no time to tune the setup of your car / PU for this condition.

The PUs run countless hours of testing on test beds. Teams already have a good idea of how to set-up the cars before they ever arrive to the GPs. They use simulation software heavily. It's the small tweaks that take place during practice sessions. Testing is done to validate all of the simulation and design work.

[CriXus]

Both Mercedes and Ferrari are using Melbourne specification engine in the second test!https://twitter.com/SmilexTech/status/8 ... 4700665856

[Sevach]

+1.

If the first time you try turning everything up to maximum attack is Q3 you are going to be pretty stuffed if it doesn't work. Also you would have no time to tune the setup of your car / PU for this condition.

I think what we actually see time and again is that the top times from testing are actually genuine "how fast will it go" times. I suspect that Massa's recent lap was Williams testing their ultimate pace.

Probably very close to it, but he remained on track for about 10 minutes on that run.

20/25 kilos maybe.

As for upgrading in Melbourne, Williams was a team that last year banked on a nose+FW that didn't get ready for testing, or the first race in fact, it was an integral piece of the car and they never tested it.

I'd say the results were not what they hoped for from that, but they did it anyway.

[Wass85]

Yes, the temperatures and conditions are much different, they're not comparable.

That puts Massa's 08 time in better light as he set that time in April.

With a much lighter car it has to be said. So if the heavier cars can match that sort of a lap time I'd say it's an achievement!

That's not the point, these cars were meant to be the fastest of all time despite being heavier.

[marvin78]

No one said that ever. They should be ~ 5 seconds faster than 2015 ones. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Wass85]

No one said that ever. They should be ~ 5 seconds faster than 2015 ones. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yes they did.

[Danlizzyman]

That puts Massa's 08 time in better light as he set that time in April.

With a much lighter car it has to be said. So if the heavier cars can match that sort of a lap time I'd say it's an achievement!

That's not the point, these cars were meant to be the fastest of all time despite being heavier.

Wow, really?? Where did you read that?

[FrukostScones]

ALO spun and wasnt seen again. I think he has enough oft this dog.

[Morteza]

From AMuS' Tobi Grüner:

Mercedes upgrade is working fine now after reinforcements to the floor. Melbourne-spec engine already in use.

[TAG]

I think we should look at Honda troubles as troubling for F1 as a whole. We need to look at the facts.

1: In 2010 3 teams entered F1 (LotusF1, Virgin Racing and Hispania) as of 2017 all of those teams are out of F1.
2: Honda re-entered F1 in 2015 as PU supplier and 3 years later they stil have not achieved reasonable performance.

F1 rules are therefore insufficient for new entrants. I don't know why the F1 fraternity lets this even happen. F1 needs manufacturers to successful in order to attract more new entrants. However, F1 lets Honda struggle for 3 years. Its just stupid and robs F1 fans of a team of the caliber of McLaren to be not competitive. This is situation were there are no winners.....

Let Honda and future new entrants to F1 test more in order to catch-up and make it more easier for new entrants to be competitive. I don't like artificial tricks like weight penalty ectera. But, give new teams or PU manufactures a 12 month testing period. Japanese companies have a lot of pride, I don't see Honda in F1 in 2018 if 2017 is as horrible as 2015. They will simply pull to plug and focus maybe on Formula E or WEC.

Great post. I mostly agree with it, but I think some of the inherent problems is that the sport has become too reliant on engine manufacturers. If Honda was given special treatment, then the other engine manufacturers wouldn't have been pleased. Fail if you do, fail if you don't. I think equal price money distribution is also a big issue and some of the causes why those 3 teams that entered F1 all left again. The cost required to enter and do well is just immense.

Eric Boullier was interviewed by Crofty yesterday and he ruled out McLaren being able to build its own engines because these PUs are just too complex. It's not only about the money and R&D required to start building - it's also about having the resources and the capacity. And he also mentioned that perhaps these engines aren't too relevant for McLarens road program (to the point they'd want to invest in them, like for example Mercedes and Renault do).

Not to sidetrack the thread too much, however to make the assosiation of failing team to Honda's woes is off the mark. Honda made their time and even decided to wait an additional year. They arguably had "access" to the Mercedes PU, the cream of the crop for an entire season and still underestimated the task.

So Ferrari struggled, Renault struggled, what makes Honda special that they wouldn't struggle just the same? The problems with Honda are the dumb exclusivity agreement that limits their data gathering capability and perhaps a lack of pertinent know how.

I think the problem is the Mercedes is just making every other manufacturer look amateurish at best. Now if Porsche came back into the sport would they suffer from the same issues Honda has? I'm going to vote no on that one.

The *ONLY* problem with the sport is the fact that they change the regulations as often as Bernie wets his pants. Set the goal of where you want to be as a sport/technology decide whether or not the sport needs to be a vanguard or not, and leave things along for a number of years; the competition will tighten up considerably and give the fans what they want.

[Big Mangalhit]

If the first time you try turning everything up to maximum attack is Q3 you are going to be pretty stuffed if it doesn't work. Also you would have no time to tune the setup of your car / PU for this condition.

The PUs run countless hours of testing on test beds. Teams already have a good idea of how to set-up the cars before they ever arrive to the GPs. They use simulation software heavily. It's the small tweaks that take place during practice sessions. Testing is done to validate all of the simulation and design work.

Having your avatar makes sense you think a test bed is enough to test everything. But is quite clear it isn't you need really action on 100% pu before the changes start counting. Also I never said that test times are everything. Just at some points teams need to test a lot of the engine at 100% capacity or even overwork it. And test all the aero ideas they have got available.

Doesn't mean they will make this all at the same time with low fuel and do a full banzai lap. but for sure they all have at some points the engine in race conditions (unless they really can't)