Christian Horner under Investigation

[Watto]

That face of Geri’s on that link

This is new

On 17 pages, the Horner affair is detailed in detail and, among other things, the name of the employee who made the allegations against Horner is mentioned for the first time. It is told how the woman collapsed on the sidelines of a racing weekend and, crying, told colleagues for the first time about her boss's transgressive behavior.

Saw that and wondered it was something in one of the messages - I didn't go through them all so didn't know.


As for the pic, eh, she doesn't look impressed but honestly think its hard to read into it - perhaps its it as it looks had enough of the smiles for the camera etc. But could have been a small moment the camera has capture way out of context and they've used that photo for that very reason. Like using selective quotes of a conversations to take it out of context sometimes. We will probably find out in time how things are there though

[myurr]

Remarkable contradiction to how FIA acted with the Suzie article.

No matter how damaging for F1 the Horner saga is, it's still an internal Red Bull issue. So it does not (legally) concern the FIA. The Suzie Wolff case did potentially concern the FIA. That's a big difference.

MBS knows that all he and the FIA can do here is public relations work to try and get the issue resolved. They have no recourse to interfere.

Let me draw your attention to Article 8.7 of the sporting regulations:

If in the opinion of the F1 Commission, a Competitor fails to operate his team in a manner
compatible with the standards of the Championship or in any way brings the
Championship into disrepute, the FIA may exclude such Competitor from the
Championship forthwith

This is absolutely a matter for the FIA given the very real possibility that Red Bull have been involved in a cover up of Horner's activity, which in turn has been a breach of employment law and, one would think, Red Bull policy. The FIA should investigate and gather evidence for the F1 Commission to make a ruling.

I wouldn't expect the FIA to exclude Red Bull from the championship, but I'm sure with the backing of the teams other sanctions could be brought to bear to pressure Red Bull into doing the right thing. With the usual caveats about it being dependent upon Horner's guilt.

[Watto]

Remarkable contradiction to how FIA acted with the Suzie article.

No matter how damaging for F1 the Horner saga is, it's still an internal Red Bull issue. So it does not (legally) concern the FIA. The Suzie Wolff case did potentially concern the FIA. That's a big difference.

MBS knows that all he and the FIA can do here is public relations work to try and get the issue resolved. They have no recourse to interfere.

Let me draw your attention to Article 8.7 of the sporting regulations:

If in the opinion of the F1 Commission, a Competitor fails to operate his team in a manner
compatible with the standards of the Championship or in any way brings the
Championship into disrepute, the FIA may exclude such Competitor from the
Championship forthwith

This is absolutely a matter for the FIA given the very real possibility that Red Bull have been involved in a cover up of Horner's activity, which in turn has been a breach of employment law and, one would think, Red Bull policy. The FIA should investigate and gather evidence for the F1 Commission to make a ruling.

I wouldn't expect the FIA to exclude Red Bull from the championship, but I'm sure with the backing of the teams other sanctions could be brought to bear to pressure Red Bull into doing the right thing. With the usual caveats about it being dependent upon Horner's guilt.

Yeah they can but seems a complaint needs to be lodged with them first.


https://www.cp24.com/news/fia-president ... -1.6792180

SAKHIR, Bahrain (AP) — The president of Formula 1’s governing body told the Financial Times the controversy around Red Bull team principal Christian Horner is damaging the sport, but that the FIA won’t conduct its own inquiry unless it receives a complaint.

[myurr]

Yeah they can but seems a complaint needs to be lodged with them first.


https://www.cp24.com/news/fia-president ... -1.6792180

SAKHIR, Bahrain (AP) — The president of Formula 1’s governing body told the Financial Times the controversy around Red Bull team principal Christian Horner is damaging the sport, but that the FIA won’t conduct its own inquiry unless it receives a complaint.

That's their choice. They launched an enquiry into Susie Wolff, and leaked it to the press, without a complaint. And I suspect one team or another will make that complaint (likely a joint statement from several teams) if the FIA stands idle for too long. This risks damaging the wider brand for F1, and it's only a matter of time before someone like Lewis speaks out once he's sure of the evidence against Horner. He's precisely the type of person to take a stand on such matters and support the victim whilst pushing F1 to live up to modern standards.

[Watto]

Yeah they can but seems a complaint needs to be lodged with them first.


https://www.cp24.com/news/fia-president ... -1.6792180

SAKHIR, Bahrain (AP) — The president of Formula 1’s governing body told the Financial Times the controversy around Red Bull team principal Christian Horner is damaging the sport, but that the FIA won’t conduct its own inquiry unless it receives a complaint.

That's their choice. They launched an enquiry into Susie Wolff, and leaked it to the press, without a complaint. And I suspect one team or another will make that complaint (likely a joint statement from several teams) if the FIA stands idle for too long. This risks damaging the wider brand for F1, and it's only a matter of time before someone like Lewis speaks out once he's sure of the evidence against Horner. He's precisely the type of person to take a stand on such matters and support the victim whilst pushing F1 to live up to modern standards.

I'd imaging it would have to be the employee at the centre of all this that would have to lodge a complain otherwise it goes no where really. If she isn't willing to be a part of the investigation Lewis, Toto et all really can't do much other than make noise


Also the FIA dropped it pretty quickly once it was reavealed there wasn't a complain and they didn't really have the support.

[myurr]

Yeah they can but seems a complaint needs to be lodged with them first.


https://www.cp24.com/news/fia-president ... -1.6792180

That's their choice. They launched an enquiry into Susie Wolff, and leaked it to the press, without a complaint. And I suspect one team or another will make that complaint (likely a joint statement from several teams) if the FIA stands idle for too long. This risks damaging the wider brand for F1, and it's only a matter of time before someone like Lewis speaks out once he's sure of the evidence against Horner. He's precisely the type of person to take a stand on such matters and support the victim whilst pushing F1 to live up to modern standards.

I'd imaging it would have to be the employee at the centre of all this that would have to lodge a complain otherwise it goes no where really. If she isn't willing to be a part of the investigation Lewis, Toto et all really can't do much other than make noise


Also the FIA dropped it pretty quickly once it was reavealed there wasn't a complain and they didn't really have the support.

The FIA wouldn't be investigating the specifics of the case, they would be investigating the conduct of the competitor. As such they can request the evidence and report from Red Bull, and could conduct their own interviews. It seems that Horner's behaviour was pretty infamous in the paddock, although again that's still rumours.

Article 8.7 of the sporting code makes no reference to needing a complain to launch an investigation anyway. That's just the FIA coming up with an excuse. The F1 Commission can act unilaterally.

[Watto]

That's their choice. They launched an enquiry into Susie Wolff, and leaked it to the press, without a complaint. And I suspect one team or another will make that complaint (likely a joint statement from several teams) if the FIA stands idle for too long. This risks damaging the wider brand for F1, and it's only a matter of time before someone like Lewis speaks out once he's sure of the evidence against Horner. He's precisely the type of person to take a stand on such matters and support the victim whilst pushing F1 to live up to modern standards.

I'd imaging it would have to be the employee at the centre of all this that would have to lodge a complain otherwise it goes no where really. If she isn't willing to be a part of the investigation Lewis, Toto et all really can't do much other than make noise


Also the FIA dropped it pretty quickly once it was reavealed there wasn't a complain and they didn't really have the support.

The FIA wouldn't be investigating the specifics of the case, they would be investigating the conduct of the competitor. As such they can request the evidence and report from Red Bull, and could conduct their own interviews. It seems that Horner's behaviour was pretty infamous in the paddock, although again that's still rumours.

Article 8.7 of the sporting code makes no reference to needing a complain to launch an investigation anyway. That's just the FIA coming up with an excuse. The F1 Commission can act unilaterally.

I doubt they get far without a complaint though especially if Horner calls in the lawyers.


I think Horner should do - I think reading some of the recent articles in this thread they will do it on their own.

I just doubt they have any real legal grounds to push too far without a a real source to work from; rules the FIA or any company for that matter has aren't always 'legal' if challanged in court - though I suspect its also why they dropped the Suzi BS pretty quickly too were proably told their legal grounds were pretty thin.

I'd say RB would probably be reluctant to hand over the report too if it took things too far out of their control evenif they too it seems (well parts of them) want Horner out. Depending on the report too its likely they need to verify data as some have pointed out in this thread plain images of convos without metadata are pretty quicly dismissed - otherwise too easy to falsify them metadata helps verify it.

Without the victim - perhaps maybe RBR themselves? I think the FIA's hands are probably tied when the reports are Horners been pretty quick to call in the lawyers

[PlatinumZealot]

Yeah they can but seems a complaint needs to be lodged with them first.


https://www.cp24.com/news/fia-president ... -1.6792180

SAKHIR, Bahrain (AP) — The president of Formula 1’s governing body told the Financial Times the controversy around Red Bull team principal Christian Horner is damaging the sport, but that the FIA won’t conduct its own inquiry unless it receives a complaint.

That's their choice. They launched an enquiry into Susie Wolff, and leaked it to the press, without a complaint. And I suspect one team or another will make that complaint (likely a joint statement from several teams) if the FIA stands idle for too long. This risks damaging the wider brand for F1, and it's only a matter of time before someone like Lewis speaks out once he's sure of the evidence against Horner. He's precisely the type of person to take a stand on such matters and support the victim whilst pushing F1 to live up to modern standards.

Holy sh*tsnacks!!
Hmm.
That pillow-talk saga was a mysterious one. The complainant was not identified. It was a sniper's shot at Toto Wolf who has somewhat elevated himself into a powerful man in the paddock over the years and we know there are many who want to see him fall. Christian is one of them.

This could be a revenge tale for all we know. Suzie is very big on woman empowerment. She could have her tentacles deep into this and working through a proxy...

[Watto]

Yeah they can but seems a complaint needs to be lodged with them first.


https://www.cp24.com/news/fia-president ... -1.6792180

That's their choice. They launched an enquiry into Susie Wolff, and leaked it to the press, without a complaint. And I suspect one team or another will make that complaint (likely a joint statement from several teams) if the FIA stands idle for too long. This risks damaging the wider brand for F1, and it's only a matter of time before someone like Lewis speaks out once he's sure of the evidence against Horner. He's precisely the type of person to take a stand on such matters and support the victim whilst pushing F1 to live up to modern standards.

Holy sh*tsnacks!!
Hmm.
That pillow-talk saga was a mysterious one. The complainant was not identified. It was a sniper's shot at Toto Wolf who has somewhat elevated himself into a powerful man in the paddock over the years and we know there are many who want to see him fall. Christian is one of them.

This could be a revenge tale for all we know. Suzie is very big on woman empowerment. She could have her tentacles deep into this and working through a proxy...

Yep the Suzi one was a mess, it reaked of a power control of some kind a little like the whole RBR stuff does too.



As you point out though with her background she may be able to influence her to come forward and make a complaint and give grounds for the FIA to investigate. Just without the co operation of the woman/victim involved to be willing to be at least interviewed even if to more verify RB internal report I am not sure they have many grounds to really push it too far.

[TFSA]

Remarkable contradiction to how FIA acted with the Suzie article.

No matter how damaging for F1 the Horner saga is, it's still an internal Red Bull issue. So it does not (legally) concern the FIA. The Suzie Wolff case did potentially concern the FIA. That's a big difference.

MBS knows that all he and the FIA can do here is public relations work to try and get the issue resolved. They have no recourse to interfere.

Let me draw your attention to Article 8.7 of the sporting regulations:

If in the opinion of the F1 Commission, a Competitor fails to operate his team in a manner
compatible with the standards of the Championship or in any way brings the
Championship into disrepute, the FIA may exclude such Competitor from the
Championship forthwith

This is absolutely a matter for the FIA given the very real possibility that Red Bull have been involved in a cover up of Horner's activity, which in turn has been a breach of employment law and, one would think, Red Bull policy. The FIA should investigate and gather evidence for the F1 Commission to make a ruling.

I wouldn't expect the FIA to exclude Red Bull from the championship, but I'm sure with the backing of the teams other sanctions could be brought to bear to pressure Red Bull into doing the right thing. With the usual caveats about it being dependent upon Horner's guilt.

You don't get the issue here.

The issue here is that FIA does not have the ability to investigate this. They cannot request Red Bull to hand over information that is essentially private. They do not have the legal power to compel Red Bull to disclose the information pertaining to this as things look now. Any evidence turned over to Red Bull by any involved party is essentially private information, and Red Bull has a legal obligation to safeguard it.

Therefore, no proper investigation can be carried out by the FIA in this case. And if they can't carry out an investigation, they can't punish. Simple as that. They can't punish Red Bull or Horner based on an unsubstantiated leak, especially considering that leak wasn't supposed to happen in the first place. This information was never meant to be public, and at this point we can't even confirm if it is real at all.

All the FIA can do is trust that the barrister Red Bull appointed did a proper job with the investigation they carried out.

[Watto]

No matter how damaging for F1 the Horner saga is, it's still an internal Red Bull issue. So it does not (legally) concern the FIA. The Suzie Wolff case did potentially concern the FIA. That's a big difference.

MBS knows that all he and the FIA can do here is public relations work to try and get the issue resolved. They have no recourse to interfere.

Let me draw your attention to Article 8.7 of the sporting regulations:

If in the opinion of the F1 Commission, a Competitor fails to operate his team in a manner
compatible with the standards of the Championship or in any way brings the
Championship into disrepute, the FIA may exclude such Competitor from the
Championship forthwith

This is absolutely a matter for the FIA given the very real possibility that Red Bull have been involved in a cover up of Horner's activity, which in turn has been a breach of employment law and, one would think, Red Bull policy. The FIA should investigate and gather evidence for the F1 Commission to make a ruling.

I wouldn't expect the FIA to exclude Red Bull from the championship, but I'm sure with the backing of the teams other sanctions could be brought to bear to pressure Red Bull into doing the right thing. With the usual caveats about it being dependent upon Horner's guilt.

You don't get the issue here.

The issue here is that FIA does not have the ability to investigate this. They cannot request Red Bull to hand over information that is essentially private. They do not have the legal power to compel Red Bull to disclose the information pertaining to this as things look now.

Therefore, no proper investigation can be carried out by the FIA in this case. And if they can't carry out an investigation, they can't punish. Simple as that. They can't punish Red Bull or Horner based on an unsubstantiated leak, especially considering that leak wasn't supposed to happen in the first place. This information was never meant to be public in the first place.

IF the woman/victim at the center of all this comes forward to them i'd imagine they may have grounds but without that agree see no way it get that far. I'd perhaps question too even if RB gave them the report without her willing to be interviewed to verify without the original transcripts far even that takes them

[TFSA]

IF the woman/victim at the center of all this comes forward to them i'd imagine they may have grounds but without that agree see no way it get that far. I'd perhaps question too even if RB gave them the report without her willing to be interviewed to verify without the original transcripts far even that takes them

The problem is that still won't suffice, because to bring the sport into disrepute, you have to have done something publicly. This is still a private matter, which got leaked. Neither Red Bull nor Horner is responsible for someone leaking it, unless the leak came from Red Bull itself.

For example, if it turns out Mintzlaff leaked it (as some suggests), then that could absolutely be used as an argument against Red Bull. But i doubt any action could be brought against Horner from the FIA. Horner is not responsible for his private matters leaking. By all accounts, this is still an internal Red Bull issue. The FIA is simply playing firefighters here, trying to put a damper on it.

[CHT]

IF the woman/victim at the center of all this comes forward to them i'd imagine they may have grounds but without that agree see no way it get that far. I'd perhaps question too even if RB gave them the report without her willing to be interviewed to verify without the original transcripts far even that takes them

The problem is that still won't suffice, because to bring the sport into disrepute, you have to have done something publicly. This is still a private matter, which got leaked. Neither Red Bull nor Horner is responsible for someone leaking it, unless the leak came from Red Bull itself.

For example, if it turns out Mintzlaff leaked it (as some suggests), then that could absolutely be used as an argument against Red Bull. But i doubt any action could be brought against Horner from the FIA. Horner is not responsible for his private matters leaking. By all accounts, this is still an internal Red Bull issue. The FIA is simply playing firefighters here, trying to put a damper on it.

F1 is the place for excitement, lavishness, risk, entertainment, and extravagance, not a place for moral high ground and family entertainment. So F1 communities should stop judging others' private lives.

FIA should go after the people who leak private conversations to discourage others from using character assassination as a tool to bring down rival teams.

Hypothetically, suppose if Christian Horner decided to step down, I would think that many team owners will be keen to engage him to turn their team to become RB.

Perhaps Jos is instigating this to get CH across to Ferrari so that Max can join him?

[mendis]

Let me draw your attention to Article 8.7 of the sporting regulations:



This is absolutely a matter for the FIA given the very real possibility that Red Bull have been involved in a cover up of Horner's activity, which in turn has been a breach of employment law and, one would think, Red Bull policy. The FIA should investigate and gather evidence for the F1 Commission to make a ruling.

I wouldn't expect the FIA to exclude Red Bull from the championship, but I'm sure with the backing of the teams other sanctions could be brought to bear to pressure Red Bull into doing the right thing. With the usual caveats about it being dependent upon Horner's guilt.

You don't get the issue here.

The issue here is that FIA does not have the ability to investigate this. They cannot request Red Bull to hand over information that is essentially private. They do not have the legal power to compel Red Bull to disclose the information pertaining to this as things look now.

Therefore, no proper investigation can be carried out by the FIA in this case. And if they can't carry out an investigation, they can't punish. Simple as that. They can't punish Red Bull or Horner based on an unsubstantiated leak, especially considering that leak wasn't supposed to happen in the first place. This information was never meant to be public in the first place.

IF the woman/victim at the center of all this comes forward to them i'd imagine they may have grounds but without that agree see no way it get that far. I'd perhaps question too even if RB gave them the report without her willing to be interviewed to verify without the original transcripts far even that takes them

I would love to see if the woman can come forward and confirm the unsubstantiated information on the internet is true. That's the only way to know the full details of the chats, instead of selective cut and paste someone has done (assuming if those screenshots are even real). It would then become clear, if the full texts justify Red Bull GmbH and independent barrister dismissing the case.

Imagine if she says they aren't real.

[Watto]

You don't get the issue here.

The issue here is that FIA does not have the ability to investigate this. They cannot request Red Bull to hand over information that is essentially private. They do not have the legal power to compel Red Bull to disclose the information pertaining to this as things look now.

Therefore, no proper investigation can be carried out by the FIA in this case. And if they can't carry out an investigation, they can't punish. Simple as that. They can't punish Red Bull or Horner based on an unsubstantiated leak, especially considering that leak wasn't supposed to happen in the first place. This information was never meant to be public in the first place.

IF the woman/victim at the center of all this comes forward to them i'd imagine they may have grounds but without that agree see no way it get that far. I'd perhaps question too even if RB gave them the report without her willing to be interviewed to verify without the original transcripts far even that takes them

I would love to see if the woman can come forward and confirm the unsubstantiated information on the internet is true. That's the only way to know the full details of the chats, instead of selective cut and paste someone has done (assuming if those screenshots are even real). It would then become clear, if the full texts justify Red Bull GmbH and independent barrister dismissing the case.

Imagine if she says they aren't real.

I am opening to them being fake but have the feeling they are real - I do wonder though if we've been shown a very very selective side to them though maybe not that that doesn't mean he isn't at fault (if they are real) but would perhaps show a bigger picture