Turbocharger assisted Aerodynamics in 2014 and beyond

[neilbah]

how about the turbo is used as a jet engine with afterburner lets not get silly

[Pierce89]

From compressor straight out to the exhaust could be an option maybe

With the new exhaust placement, it'd be nigh on worthless.

[shelly]

I am not so sure - but this time of the year I like to dream about wild developments

[Shaddock]

They must be exiting the air from the DV/blow off valve into the exhaust system if this is the case.

If they have them at all.

If you don't put one in it will add lag to the the turbo and potentially damage the blades during the surges.

[ringo]

well those res say all air going into the engine.
It doesn't say all compressor air must go into the engine does it?

Those are rules for inlets, not outlets.

All fluids leaving compressor must exit the exhaust. That means the only place you could squirt compressed air is in the engine or straight out the exhaust. I don't think it gets much clearer in FIA terms.

where is that in the regs?

[wuzak]

well those res say all air going into the engine.
It doesn't say all compressor air must go into the engine does it?

Those are rules for inlets, not outlets.

All fluids leaving compressor must exit the exhaust. That means the only place you could squirt compressed air is in the engine or straight out the exhaust. I don't think it gets much clearer in FIA terms.

where is that in the regs?

5.8.1 With the exception of incidental leakage through joints (either into or out of the system), all (and only) the fluids entering the compressor inlet must exit from the engine exhaust system.

[wuzak]

In the 2014 season we will have precious, pressurized air from the turbochargers to do our evil deeds of cheating the rule system.

Can you say off throttle blowing of wings? Or on-throttle wing stalling? Compressed air brake and wheels cooling?

The Lotus DRD is a prime candidate for making use of compressed air from the turbo charger.

Lets see some designs folks!

5.8.1 With the exception of incidental leakage through joints (either into or out of the system), all (and only) the fluids entering the compressor inlet must exit from the engine exhaust system.

Cannot use the air from the compressor for aerodynamic purposes.

hmmm

hmmm what?

If you have an incidental leakage that just so happens to feed into a duct that takes it to a wing for aerodynamic purposes then I feel that the FIA would take the view that the leakage wasn't so incidental.

[wuzak]

They must be exiting the air from the DV/blow off valve into the exhaust system if this is the case.

If they have them at all.

If you don't put one in it will add lag to the the turbo and potentially damage the blades during the surges.

Lag will be dealt with by the MGU-H.

The MGU-H will also be used to control the speed of the turbo to control the boost.

[Holm86]

They must be exiting the air from the DV/blow off valve into the exhaust system if this is the case.

If they have them at all.

If you don't put one in it will add lag to the the turbo and potentially damage the blades during the surges.

I'll quote something I wrote in another thread.

Im not quite sure about the blow-off.

But I suggested something earlier this year which would also remove much of the need of running a blow-off valve.


I suggested that they should run cold blowing of the engine if that is allowed in 2014. This means when the driver lifts off the throttle pedal the throttle plates should open 100% instead of closing as normal. This would keep a higher flow through the turbo so you can harvest more energy with the MGU-H. It would decrease pumping losses which would decrease natural engine braking effect which allows the MGU-K to harvest a larger procentage during braking. And last it would prevent the shockwave moving backward from the throttleplate to the compressor when the throttleplate closes. The fuel and ignition would off course be cut.

IMO it should be legal as there is no aerodynamic advantage from cold blowing next year with the new exhaust exit regulations.

And when it comes to the turbo assisted aero I think the regulations are pretty clear. Just like wuzak pointed out.

[neilbah]

as with the blown exhaust era could we still see throttles left open most of the lap to aid exhaust flow keeping the exhaust spool and negate the need for pressure relief valves on the inlet side..? probably been discussed in the engine thread, excuse me if so but its heavy reading. damn sumone beat me to it

[PlatinumZealot]

If you open the throttle you would have more pumping losses. Unless you had variable valve timing all that extra air you are sucking in is going to take more energy from the pistons to compress it. The extra energy now, would come from combustion.
If cold blowing the exhaust is your goal, then you cannot escape pumping losses. Pumping loss in it self is not that bad of a thing when u are cold blowing because the cold blowing is usually done while under braking.

[1158]

They must be exiting the air from the DV/blow off valve into the exhaust system if this is the case.

If they have them at all.

If you don't put one in it will add lag to the the turbo and potentially damage the blades during the surges.

Not necessarily. If the throttle plate never closes all the way (cold blowing) you would not need a DV/BOV and would be able to keep the turbo spooled up.

[PlatinumZealot]

well those res say all air going into the engine.
It doesn't say all compressor air must go into the engine does it?

Those are rules for inlets, not outlets.

All fluids leaving compressor must exit the exhaust. That means the only place you could squirt compressed air is in the engine or straight out the exhaust. I don't think it gets much clearer in FIA terms.

Hmm.. You are giving new ideas now..

the air is compressed, therefore after it is used, it can be reintroduced in a low pressure state back to the exhaust stream.

[Holm86]

If you open the throttle you would have more pumping losses. Unless you had variable valve timing all that extra air you are sucking in is going to take more energy from the pistons to compress it. The extra energy now, would come from combustion.
If cold blowing the exhaust is your goal, then you cannot escape pumping losses. Pumping loss in it self is not that bad of a thing when u are cold blowing because the cold blowing is usually done while under braking.

That is not true. Yes you need more energy to compress more air. But you get almost all of it in return in the "combustion phase" where there is no combustion but the piston is still forced down by the compressed air just like a spring.

[Holm86]

how about the turbo is used as a jet engine with afterburner lets not get silly

Actually the turbo could be run as a jet without going out of the regulations I think. Not with afterburner though But there would be no reason to do this as the power generated by this "jet turbine" could only feed the MGU-K with 160 HP.