Is the BMW i3 the most advanced production car?

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Is the BMW i3 the most advanced production car?

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Tim.Wright wrote:Where are you getting this 90s cure cycle from?
Composite technology
Auto composites quest: One-minute cycle time?
Faced with high fuel prices and ever-more stringent restrictions on tailpipe emissions, automakers are taking composites int

Posted on: 8/1/2012
Source: Composites Technology
Due out in 2013, BMW’s all-electric i3 commuter car will feature a resin transfer molded carbon fiber composite passenger cell (shown here on display at a recent trade show). Source: CT Photo: Jeff Sloan
CAFE standards are used by the U.S. government to establish vehicle fuel efficiency standards (measured in miles per gallon or mpg) for all cars and trucks sold into the U.S. The 2017-2025 proposed standard (summarized here) calls for substantial increases.
Teijin (Tokyo, Japan) used its 60-second thermoplastic composite press-forming process to mold the passenger cell on this demonstrator vehicle. Teijin now is working with General Motors (Detroit, Mich.) to integrate this molding technology into passenger-vehicle production. Source: Teijin

Automotive composites veteran Antony Dodworth says the biggest barriers to integration of carbon composites into cars and trucks are encountered in the design and engineering stages. A car door, for example, can be designed and manufactured with composites to use far fewer parts (above) than required when using metals (see photo below). Source: Antony Dodworth

This car door, in metal, requires a larger number of separately manufactured parts than are necessary in the same door designed optimally for composites (compare with previous image, above). But Antony Dodworth assumes that there will be a period in which car parts are designed as “black metal” before automakers start optimizing structures for composites use. Source: Antony Dodworth
Regulation of tail-pipe emissions.
As the world’s automakers emerged from the recent recession, shaken to the core and, in some cases, recapitalized with public funds, almost everything had changed but this. In the U.S., the National Highway Traffic Safety Admin. (NHTSA) and the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) are in the midst of updating Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards for the 2017 to 2025 time frame. CAFE standards are used by the U.S. government to establish vehicle fuel efficiency standards for all cars and trucks sold into the U.S. The proposed 2017-2025 standard calls for a substantial increase in automotive fuel efficiency. Table 1 highlights what’s in store.
In the European Union (EU), the European Commission, which develops and promulgates most of the regulations that govern EU industry, is focusing on direct reduction of emissions in cars and trucks. The current emissions limit in passenger cars is 130g of CO2/km, but by 2020 that figure will drop to 95g CO2/km. Regulations in the works for the post-2020 era promise more of the same.
Whether a carmaker is trying to reduce emissions or improve fuel efficiency, one of the most effective strategies is weight reduction, and few inside the auto industry dispute that the best tools in the lightweighting toolbox are composites — in particular, carbon fiber-reinforced polymers (CFRPs), which offer a strength-per weight ratio superior to any other materials, whether metal or polymer based. But historically automakers could not act on that knowledge in a significant way because they faced a threefold challenge: cycle time, cost and availability. How can carbon fiber composite structures be made at a cost and manufacturing speed conducive to high-volume automotive production? And, some automakers have pointed out, even if carbon fiber were cheaper, how could the industry commit to carbon fiber composite structures with the fiber supply so volatile and unreliable?
In the prerecession auto world, auto OEMs asked these questions and appeared to be waiting for the composites industry to provide the answers. But in the glare of postrecession realities — the continuing high price of fossil fuels and a recognition that to dismiss concerns about greenhouse gas effects on the environment is, at best, politically indefensible — auto OEMs are now taking the initiative.
In the area of carbon fiber availability, for example, one way to address this challenge is to develop a partnership with a carbon fiber manufacturer to create a carbon fiber supply chain designed exclusively for your vehicles. In 2010 carmaker BMW Group (Munich, Germany) and carbon fiber manufacturer SGL Group (Wiesbaden, Germany) did exactly that, creating SGL Automotive Carbon Fibers, which recently commissioned a carbon fiber plant, with a capacity of 3,000 metric tonnes (6.614 million lb), in Moses Lake, Wash. BMW will need that much because those fibers will see significant use in large parts, including the passenger cell and other chassis structures and, possibly, body panels on the 2013 all-electric i3 passenger car and the 2014 hybrid-electric i8 sports car — the first time carbon fiber composites will have been used in chassis structures on a production passenger car.
The BMW/SGL venture also attacks the issue of cycle time. The manufacturing pace required to meet the high-volume requirements of car or truck production is generally acknowledged to be one part per minute, a cycle duration maintained for decades by auto OEMs in their metal-stamping operations. Ideally, an automotive manufacturer would prefer a true 60-second process, something the composites industry has been unable to promise, particularly with regard to thermoset composites, which necessarily consume some time to crosslink sufficiently to cure. But composites proponents have always maintained that because tooling for composite molding can be built for a small fraction of the cost of metal-stamping molds, the part-per-minute expectation could be met with lengthier processes by using multiple tools and presses. And mold cycle times have been reduced incrementally as innovative molding processes have proliferated over the past few years.
Although the cycle time for the BMW process is unknown, what is known is that it is based on resin transfer molding (RTM) of woven carbon fiber fabrics, a process much faster than the hand layup/autoclave-cure methods used on CFRP in low-rate supercars. At Momentive Specialty Chemicals’ (Columbus, Ohio) Cedric Ball, market development manager — automotive, says the company has developed several fast-cure epoxies for use in high-pressure RTM (HP-RTM) processes (up to 200 bar/2,900 psi and 200 g/s injection rate). Ball says fast-cure RTM resins have been used by BMW since 2009 to mold the carbon fiber roof on the M3 and M6 models, and by Audi since 2011 on the B-pillar side blades for the R8. Further, Ball reports that Momentive has a 5-minute cure epoxy system going into production on several unidentified vehicles, and a two-minute cure system in trial phase. The five-minute technology combines Momentive’s EPIKOTE Resin 05475 and EPIKURE Curing Agent 05443. On the process side, Momentive has worked the most with Italian machinery manufacturer Cannon (Borromeo, Italy) and KraussMaffei/Dieffenbacher (Munich, Germany and Eppingen, Germany). “We believe that one-minute cycle times are not out of the question for RTM with the right combination of resin system, process and tool design,” Ball says. “While the resin system is a key component, Momentive understands that all three elements have to come together to make a successful product.”
I have inside sources from the equipment project.
Last edited by WhiteBlue on 10 May 2014, 01:38, edited 1 time in total.
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WhiteBlue
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Re: Is the BMW i3 the most advanced production car?

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flynfrog wrote:The cure cycle is pretty minimal compared to the production of the fiber and the production of the resin as far as energy use goes.
The fibre energy is 100% renewable hydro based energy. Moses Lake Wash. USA. You cannot beat this with aluminum or steel unless you go to an electric fired process and use hydro energy as well. To me the SGL/BMW joint venture looks pretty slick.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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flynfrog
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Re: Is the BMW i3 the most advanced production car?

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WhiteBlue wrote:
flynfrog wrote:The cure cycle is pretty minimal compared to the production of the fiber and the production of the resin as far as energy use goes.
The fibre energy is 100% renewable hydro based energy. Moses Lake Wash. USA. You cannot beat this with aluminum or steel unless you go to an electric fired process and use hydro energy as well. To me the SGL/BMW joint venture looks pretty slick.
Toray fiber?

Its still energy use. Think how many miles you could charge your steel bodied EV up for the energy to make the fibers resins ect.


Other than the resin system there isn't really anything new here. We have been RTM parts for years in aerospace. Not in a 90s mold turn around though that is truly impressive. I had a video of it somewhere. Looks like the have heavily tackified preforms and a efficient method to place them into the mold. This is what I find most impressive.

Lycoming
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Re: Is the BMW i3 the most advanced production car?

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I wonder what sort of tradeoffs they make in terms of resin properties to achieve that. And I also wonder to what degree it cures in 90 seconds.

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Powerslide
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Re: Is the BMW i3 the most advanced production car?

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I think the i8 is more advance :D
speed

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Is the BMW i3 the most advanced production car?

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WhiteBlue wrote:The fibre energy is 100% renewable hydro based energy. Moses Lake Wash. USA. You cannot beat this with aluminum or steel unless you go to an electric fired process and use hydro energy as well. .....
so you're saying in a fair comparison metal is better, but you won't have a fair comparison ?
(of this aspect that you chose)
isn't aluminium made with hydro-electricity ?

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Is the BMW i3 the most advanced production car?

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TC, I don't like having my words minced and interpreted. I'm not playing that shitty game with you.

The fact is the carbon for the BMW i3 is 100% from regenerative energy. Other cars with steel body do not claim this and cannot practically do so. Or you give me an example. IMO you will have a problem finding an example.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Is the BMW i3 the most advanced production car?

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flynfrog wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:
flynfrog wrote:The cure cycle is pretty minimal compared to the production of the fiber and the production of the resin as far as energy use goes.
The fibre energy is 100% renewable hydro based energy. Moses Lake Wash. USA. You cannot beat this with aluminum or steel unless you go to an electric fired process and use hydro energy as well. To me the SGL/BMW joint venture looks pretty slick.
Toray fiber?

Its still energy use. Think how many miles you could charge your steel bodied EV up for the energy to make the fibers resins ect.


Other than the resin system there isn't really anything new here. We have been RTM parts for years in aerospace. Not in a 90s mold turn around though that is truly impressive. I had a video of it somewhere. Looks like the have heavily tackified preforms and a efficient method to place them into the mold. This is what I find most impressive.
Its nice that we eventually get a sensible comment with regard to the technology. Perhaps you have noticed that BMW uses practically unidirectional fabric for the preforms. They use very small sections in order to align the fibre direction with the predominant direction of the stresses.

They have invested some 10 years of work into the whole process and the result is truly a break through. I'm not aware that cycle times of the same magnitude are used in the aerospace industry. I always thought they only use autoclave processes for structural parts which will typically have cycle times of hours.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Cold Fussion
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Re: Is the BMW i3 the most advanced production car?

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WhiteBlue wrote:TC, I don't like having my words minced and interpreted. I'm not playing that shitty game with you.

The fact is the carbon for the BMW i3 is 100% from regenerative energy. Other cars with steel body do not claim this and cannot practically do so. Or you give me an example. IMO you will have a problem finding an example.
Maybe it's a language barrier thing, but TC is commenting on that you said it was impossible, and possible, and choose to ignore the it's possible option.
WhiteBlue wrote: Perhaps you have noticed that BMW uses practically unidirectional fabric for the preforms. They use very small sections in order to align the fibre direction with the predominant direction of the stresses.
Forgive, but what is so special about this? Isn't most carbon cloth unidirectional?

bhall
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Re: Is the BMW i3 the most advanced production car?

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Cold Fussion wrote:[...]

Forgive, but what is so special about this?
[...]
Its association with BMW. That's it.

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flynfrog
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Re: Is the BMW i3 the most advanced production car?

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WhiteBlue wrote:
flynfrog wrote: Toray fiber?

Its still energy use. Think how many miles you could charge your steel bodied EV up for the energy to make the fibers resins ect.


Other than the resin system there isn't really anything new here. We have been RTM parts for years in aerospace. Not in a 90s mold turn around though that is truly impressive. I had a video of it somewhere. Looks like the have heavily tackified preforms and a efficient method to place them into the mold. This is what I find most impressive.
Its nice that we eventually get a sensible comment with regard to the technology. Perhaps you have noticed that BMW uses practically unidirectional fabric for the preforms. They use very small sections in order to align the fibre direction with the predominant direction of the stresses.

They have invested some 10 years of work into the whole process and the result is truly a break through. I'm not aware that cycle times of the same magnitude are used in the aerospace industry. I always thought they only use autoclave processes for structural parts which will typically have cycle times of hours.
Not everything on an airplane goes through an autoclave. There has been a big push in recent years to go out of autoclave.
The RTM process that BMW is using was developed just for that. The dry fiber preform is nothing new nor is using just uni fabric. Most large structures in aviation have much higher stress loads and are more weight critical than this part. You will see them go into a autoclave. I havent had a chance yet to dig into this resin system but I am guessing they are making lots of compromises to get this cycle time. I am curious what the void content is with this fast of the shot. They must be using some monster vacuum pumps. We do have parts for aircraft with an even faster cycle time. They use thermoplastic prepreg and presses. Looks more like a sheet metal stamping process. You have to look at overall Takt time most aircraft parts don't need a 90s takt time.


This is a carbon fan case that was shot near net RTM.

Image

Just_a_fan
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Re: Is the BMW i3 the most advanced production car?

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WhiteBlue wrote:
flynfrog wrote:The cure cycle is pretty minimal compared to the production of the fiber and the production of the resin as far as energy use goes.
The fibre energy is 100% renewable hydro based energy. Moses Lake Wash. USA. You cannot beat this with aluminum or steel unless you go to an electric fired process and use hydro energy as well. To me the SGL/BMW joint venture looks pretty slick.
The fact is that it uses a lot of energy to make the fibre. That is a lot of embodied energy. If they didn't use the energy from the hydro plant to make the fibre then they could have used it to replace fossil fuel sourced energy elsewhere e.g. electricity used in a hospital or office block. The result is that the fibre is still responsible for CO2 emissions. You can't just say "I use energy from a renewable source therefore I make no emissions" - it's one of the errors in the whole renewable energy argument.

Unless all of your energy use is from renewable sources then you're still responsible for emissions. Until the entire world is run on renewables then everyone using energy is still causing emissions.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Is the BMW i3 the most advanced production car?

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Cold Fussion wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:TC, I don't like having my words minced and interpreted. I'm not playing that shitty game with you.

The fact is the carbon for the BMW i3 is 100% from regenerative energy. Other cars with steel body do not claim this and cannot practically do so. Or you give me an example. IMO you will have a problem finding an example.
Maybe it's a language barrier thing, but TC is commenting on that you said it was impossible, and possible, and choose to ignore the it's possible option.
WhiteBlue wrote: Perhaps you have noticed that BMW uses practically unidirectional fabric for the preforms. They use very small sections in order to align the fibre direction with the predominant direction of the stresses.
Forgive, but what is so special about this? Isn't most carbon cloth unidirectional?
Not at all. The typical carbon look in F1 for instance shows off the bi directional outer layer which is very visible to the experienced eye. You can clearly see the rectangular shot in the fabric in this suspension parts.

Image

The BMW look is very different when you inspect the naked crash cell.
Image

If you follow the pattern all around the huge side frame around the two door cut outs you realise that they have at least 15-20 3D-layup sections of predominantly unidirectional fabric used only for this part.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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WhiteBlue
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Just_a_fan wrote:If they didn't use the energy from the hydro plant to make the fibre then they could have used it to replace fossil fuel sourced energy elsewhere e.g. electricity used in a hospital or office block. The result is that the fibre is still responsible for CO2 emissions.
That is bullshit my friend.
Just_a_fan wrote:Unless all of your energy use is from renewable sources then you're still responsible for emissions. Until the entire world is run on renewables then everyone using energy is still causing emissions.
I'm not going to split hairs with you. So this point is done for me. BMW uses renewables. Other brands don't. I can't even see a claim that another manufacturer tries to generate the energy for making his body shell material by renewables. Because BMW does it is irrelevant for the carbon foot print and the eco balance how much energy they use. It is green energy.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

bhall
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Re: Is the BMW i3 the most advanced production car?

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WhiteBlue wrote:
Just_a_fan wrote:[...]

Forgive, but what is so special about this? Isn't most carbon cloth unidirectional?
Not at all. The typical carbon look in F1 for instance shows off the bi directional outer layer which is very visible to the experienced eye. You can clearly see the rectangular shot in the fabric in this suspension parts.

[...]
My inexperienced eyes found unidrectional carbon fiber cloth for sale at prices as low as $12.46/yard.

This stuff has been around forever.