VW cheat emissions test with "defeat device"

[mattia.bobbo]

yes, I hope that VW suffers

but .... this is a technical site .......
where's the cheating exactly ?
the tests are passed, not cheated

aren't people basically complaining that bears defaecate in the woods ?

with EV and hybrid 'economy' cheating is actually compelled by actual law
eg 30% efficient routes to motor electricity have to be falsified as 100% to fake a comparison in fuel consumption terms
(another poster has already said that hybrids do essentially the same thing as VW - apparently with official approval everywhere)

Tests ARE cheated, and the cheats is that once the test is finished, the car pollutes like hell. VW hope you pay this one.

[turbof1]

yes, I hope that VW suffers

but .... this is a technical site .......
where's the cheating exactly ?
the tests are passed, not cheated

aren't people basically complaining that bears defaecate in the woods ?

with EV and hybrid 'economy' cheating is actually compelled by actual law
eg 30% efficient routes to motor electricity have to be falsified as 100% to fake a comparison in fuel consumption terms
(another poster has already said that hybrids do essentially the same thing as VW - apparently with official approval everywhere)

It's an obvious case of cheating. People are complaining that the bear was trained to defaecate in the toilet, but when nobody looks defaecates in the woods.

The "EV and hybrid cheating" is another thing entirely. Here the issue is VW bypasses the filter in order to reach the advertised horsepower, because passing the polution tests would be a very big inconvience due compromising on said horsepower. This is not a "passes the letter of the rules, does pass the spirit of it". This is outright violating them.

[Shrieker]

I bet a Turkish engineer was involved lol.

[Edax]

It's an obvious case of cheating. People are complaining that the bear was trained to defaecate in the toilet, but when nobody looks defaecates in the woods.

The "EV and hybrid cheating" is another thing entirely. Here the issue is VW bypasses the filter in order to reach the advertised horsepower, because passing the polution tests would be a very big inconvience due compromising on said horsepower. This is not a "passes the letter of the rules, does pass the spirit of it". This is outright violating them.

Let's be careful here. The actual EPA statements still leave some room for explanations with do not qualify as "massive betray" but rather "misbehavior". More in a sense of: You trained the bear to defaecate in the toilet, but you didn't expect him to piss all over your furniture.

Let's not forget this is a preparation for a multi billion lawsuit and the EPA can make their employer a lot of money, so they are likely to present the strongest case possible.

[mrluke]

Would have expected VW to settle this quietly before it was released.

All of the manufacturers cheat the emissions tests, who cheats the most is a moot point really.

I expect this has far more to do with a political play than anything else.

[FW17]

This is exactly what Red Bull were doing with their front wings only thing EPA and CARB are not spineless like the FIA

Ironic that there are rumors of Red Bull and VW are getting hitched

[Sixbarboost]

...
I doubt that VW are alone, I suspect that if the investigations widen, that many other foreign manufacturers will be caught in the net.....

My sentiments precisely, surely BMW, Mercedes and VW has a pretty good idea about the competition is doing, just buy a VW and test it emission-wise? The lure to do the same would be far too tempting, or so I believe anyway.

[Cold Fussion]

yes, I hope that VW suffers

but .... this is a technical site .......
where's the cheating exactly ?
the tests are passed, not cheated

aren't people basically complaining that bears defaecate in the woods ?

with EV and hybrid 'economy' cheating is actually compelled by actual law
eg 30% efficient routes to motor electricity have to be falsified as 100% to fake a comparison in fuel consumption terms
(another poster has already said that hybrids do essentially the same thing as VW - apparently with official approval everywhere)

It's an obvious case of cheating. People are complaining that the bear was trained to defaecate in the toilet, but when nobody looks defaecates in the woods.

Is it really cheating? It passes the EPA emissions tests, it's really a failure of the EPA to do representative testing.

[FW17]

You are forgetting this is a Max vs McLaren case

[FoxHound]

This is exactly what Red Bull were doing with their front wings only thing EPA and CARB are not spineless like the FIA

Ironic that there are rumors of Red Bull and VW are getting hitched

They will make perfect bedfellows.

[turbof1]

I think people are confusing breaking the rules with "not following the spirit of the rules".

Red Bull never actually cheated. The behaviour of the wing flex was not depending on whether a test was going on or not. If in real life the same conditions as the flex test was present, the wing would behave exactly the same as on a test bench. The wing would flex much more beyond the testing parameters, but that's not breaking the rules.

VW on the other hand outright cheated: the volume of emission is dependent on whether or not the test was going on. In real life the emissions would be much higher even when similar conditions from the test were present. That's downright fraud when you hide that the car cannot pass the test under its parameters. It would not have been fraud if the emissions were higher OUTSIDE the parameters of the test.

Again, breaking the rules and not following the intention of the rules are 2 seperate things. Other car manufacturers apply the very same thing what red bull did (assuming those are not running a defeat device, which I wouldn't be surprised to see): they make sure they succeed things like crash tests, but in reality the cars are often much less safe due a real life crash is always different from a standarized crash test.

[Cold Fussion]

I think people are confusing breaking the rules with "not following the spirit of the rules".

Red Bull never actually cheated. The behaviour of the wing flex was not depending on whether a test was going on or not. If in real life the same conditions as the flex test was present, the wing would behave exactly the same as on a test bench. The wing would flex much more beyond the testing parameters, but that's not breaking the rules.

VW on the other hand outright cheated: the volume of emission is dependent on whether or not the test was going on. In real life the emissions would be much higher even when similar conditions from the test were present. That's downright fraud when you hide that the car cannot pass the test under its parameters. It would not have been fraud if the emissions were higher OUTSIDE the parameters of the test.

Again, breaking the rules and not following the intention of the rules are 2 seperate things.

Clearly the EPA test is unable to represent real world conditions, it was it would have shown VW to be non-compliant. I don't see how at this point you can argue the EPA test isn't flawed as it been demonstrated on 400,000+ vehicles that the test is non representative. This brings into question all the EPA testing because if one manufacture can defeat the testing then they all can.

[turbof1]

Clearly the EPA test is unable to represent real world conditions, it was it would have shown VW to be non-compliant. I don't see how at this point you can argue the EPA test isn't flawed as it been demonstrated on 400,000+ vehicles that the test is non representative. This brings into question all the EPA testing because if one manufacture can defeat the testing then they all can.

That's a true statement, but does not change the fact that VW still ran a defeat device. Whether the test is a good simulation of real life conditions or not, VW cheated it. Please let's not victimize VW because EPA could have designed a better test. That's not the issue at hand here.

[tok-tokkie]

This claim in today's Guardian sounds preposterous to me but I would like to hear informed reaction:

The devices are thought to work by injecting more urea – an exhaust fluid – into the car when it is being tested. This limits nitrogen oxide emissions to a fraction of their usual level. The car detects it is being tested because devices such as the anti-collision systems have to be turned off when it is in the laboratory. The extra urea is not injected into the car when it is on the road because it would quickly run out.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... chael-horn

Where would that urea be stored & why has it not been picked up in all these years?

[MadMatt]

Yea this is what I thought.

I have been out of the automotive business for many years, but I remember that Citroën many years ago (still more or less the same these days) used to have capsules of an extremely toxic chemical (I think its name was "cérine", from Eolys) that was used to help burning particles during particles-filter regeneration. Replacing them was not something weird, so there is no way it could be picked by authorities if VW did something similar but with the aim to cheat the test.